Discussion:
RED ALERT: We Are Now Living Under Martial Law -- House Democrats Appear Set to Pass Senate Bill Without Voting On It
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bodhi
2010-03-15 04:13:15 UTC
Permalink
"In the Slaughter Solution, the rule would declare that the House
"deems" the Senate version of Obamacare to have been passed by the
House. House members would still have to vote on whether to accept the
rule, but they would then be able to say they only voted for a rule,
not for the bill itself."

Gee Wally, they never taught me that's how a Bill gets passed on
School House Rock ......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

I wonder why .... could it possibly be .... er .....
unconstitutional????

RED ALERT: We Are Now Living Under Martial Law -- House Democrats
Appear Set to Pass Senate Bill Without Voting On It
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/03/red-alert-we-are-now-living-under.html

The Washington Examiner reports that House Democrats appear poised to
adopt a rule that would pass the Senate health care bill without
actually voting on it.

Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) is preparing to pass the health care
overhaul through the House of Representatives without a vote, as was
originally reported by the National Journal's Congress Daily. Mark
Tapscott observes that such a maneuver would be the penultimate
refutation of the people's will.

In the Slaughter Solution, the rule would declare that the House
"deems" the Senate version of Obamacare to have been passed by the
House. House members would still have to vote on whether to accept the
rule, but they would then be able to say they only voted for a rule,
not for the bill itself.

Thus, Slaughter is preparing a rule that would consider the Senate
bill "passed" once the House approves a corrections bill that would
make changes. Democrats would thereby avoid a direct vote on the
health care bill while allowing it to become law!

Constitutional attorney Mark R. Levin asks, "They're going to present
a rule, issued by her committee as chairman, that says that the House
already adopted the Senate bill when we know it didn't?"

U.S Constitution, Article I, Section VII, Clause II.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and
the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the
President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if
not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it
shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on
their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such
Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill,
it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by
which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds
of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes
of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of
the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the
Journal of each House respectively...

According to Levin, James Madison himself gave special care and
attention to this clause in the Constitution.

Levin: And do you want to know why? Because this clause goes to the
heart of this Republic.

This clause goes to the heart of how our representative body, that is
Congress, makes laws. And so I want you to [observe] how particular
the Framers were... They have to pass a Bill to present it to the
President...

This is one of the most exacting clauses in the Constitution.

And, to the best of my knowledge, which extends over three decades, no
Congress has previously tried to institute policies without actual
statutes.

Here we have the President of the United States and Congressional
leaders actually talking about the possibility of a brazen and open
violation of one of the most fundamental aspects of our Constitution
and Republic! How we actually make laws!

Let me be as clear as I know how. If this is done, this will create
the greatest Constitutional crisis since the Civil War. It would be
100 times worse than Watergate.

...It would be government by fiat... meaning there would be no law...
the mere discussion by officials in this government is such a
grotesque violation of the actual legislative function of Congress
[that it] puts us... at the brink. At the brink.

This is why we conservatives revere the Constitution. This is why we
stress the Constitution's words have meaning and historical context
and must be complied with. Because otherwise we have anarchy, which
leads to tyranny.

This is a crucial lesson for those of you who... aren't sure what your
beliefs are, or if you have any beliefs. Or aren't sure if you even
care. We have an effort underway by the one of the most powerful
chairmen in Congress, the woman who heads the Rules
Committee, ...openly discussing gutting Congress. Gutting Congress.

And if this is done, this is about as close to martial law as you'll
ever get... So Louise Slaughter, a Representative from New York, is
discussing, in essence, martial law. Now I can tell you, if they
pursue this process, and try to impose this kind of a law, without
actually passing a statute, that I will be in a race -- with scores of
others -- to the courthouse to stop this.

I can't think of a more blatant violation of the U.S. Constitution
than this. And the liberal media has essentially ignored it!

...It's not only absurd on its face -- that these power-hungry
ideologues, party-first-country-second types, would make the claim
that the House voted on something it never voted on... that's not only
absurd on its face, it's blatantly unconstitutional!

Please stay tuned for updates to this post as we will provide
additional insight from Levin and other Constitutional experts.

Update 11-March-2010 21:03 ET:

Levin: I wanted to bring additional firepower on this subject, my
buddy Arthur Fergenson, who is a Constitutional expert and who has
argued cases in front of the Supreme Court, including Buckley vs.
Valeo...

What do you make of this unbelievable -- that they're even talking
about, this chairman of the Rules Committee -- acting as if members of
the House voted on something when they didn't actually vote on it?

Fergenson: It's preposterous. It's ludicrous. But it's also dangerous.
It's dangerous because, first, ...because [the U.S. Constitution's]
Article I Section VII says every bill -- and it capitalized "bill"
-- ...it is common sense that the bill is the same item, it can't be
multiple bills, it can't be mashups of bills. And, in fact, in 1986,
Gene Gressman, no conservative, and one of the experts -- the expert
-- on Supreme Court practice... was writing an article that was
dealing with a less problematic attempt to get around this section of
the Constitution... [Ed: the line-item veto] and he wrote, "By long
usage and plain meaning, 'Bill' means any singular and entire piece of
legislation in the form it was approved by the two houses."

...the bills have to be revoted until they are identical. Both
chambers have to vote on the bill.

If this cockamamie proposal were to be followed by the House and there
were to be a bill presented to the President for his signature, that
was a bill that had not been voted on -- identically by the two Houses
of Congress -- that bill would be a nullity. It is not law. That is
chaos.

I cannot recall any circumstance in which that has happened.

...What we have here is a measure, that if Obama signed it, would
immediately affect taxation, it would change rules of practice in the
insurance industry, it would regulate 17% of the nation's economy, and
it would be done without any legal basis whatsoever!

Update 11-March-2010 21:12 ET:

Fergenson: It's like, the closest I can think of is martial law! The
President would have no authority -- there would be no law! It's not
like it would be constitutional or not. There would be. No. Law.

Levin: What do you make of people who sit around and even think of
things like this? To me, they are absolutely unfit to even be in high
office!

Fergenson: You're right, Mark. And I would go back to what caused
Gressman to write this... he was asked for his comments by the
Senate... because the Senate was trying to do the equivalent of a line-
item veto. And, in 1986, you were in the Justice Department under
Attorney General Meese... there was a proposal... to take a bill and
divide it into little pieces and.. then the President would sign each
one or veto each one. That was unconstitutional. A Senate Rules
Committee reported it unfavorably.

Update 11-March-2010 21:36 ET:

Levin: You know what's interesting about this... Attorney General Ed
Meese considered it unconstitutional even though President Reagan had
wanted a line-item veto. And President Reagan agreed that it was
unconstitutional without an amendment to the Constitution...

...Speaking for myself, I would tell the people who listen to this
program that you are under absolutely no obligation to comply with it
[this health care bill] because it is not, in fact, law. Do you agree
with me?

Fergenson: I agree with you. I believe it would be tested by the
Supreme Court. I believe that, under these circumstances, chaos would
reign. There is no obligation to obey an unconstitutional law. The
courts are empowered to determine whether it's unconstitutional...
it's not a law.

Under this scenario, the various arms of the federal government will
be acting under a law that does not exist.


-----------------------

namaste;
bodhi
sagetea
2010-03-15 04:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Oh no martial law!!!!! eeeek!!!. Now we will all have to go to
concentration camps set up by french illuminati space aliens, who
will force us to watch home and garden television.
Who will ever save us? We should demand that the military build 100
foot high glenn beck cyborgs to quash this insidious plot.
Imagine that, sick people wanting affordable health care so they dont
become homeless or die.. Gee don't they realize that they may just
deprive an insurance company executive of a toy or two. Jeeepers
creeepers!! Thanks for warning us there. Now lets all head into our
bomb shelters in an orderly fashion.
bodhi
2010-03-15 07:06:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 14, 10:44 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh no martial law!!!!! eeeek!!!. Now we will all have to  go to
> concentration camps set up  by french illuminati  space aliens, who
> will force us to watch home and garden television.
> Who will ever save us? We should demand that the military  build 100
> foot high glenn beck cyborgs to quash this insidious plot.
> Imagine that, sick people wanting  affordable health care so they dont
> become homeless or die.. Gee don't they realize that they may just
> deprive an insurance company executive of a toy or two. Jeeepers
> creeepers!! Thanks for warning us there. Now lets all head into our
> bomb shelters  in an orderly fashion.

LOL! How do you know the illuminati space aliens are french??

namaste;
bodhi
harry
2010-03-15 14:17:12 UTC
Permalink
"bodhi" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b751d3a-4f45-4ec2-81ac-***@x23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 14, 10:44 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Oh no martial law!!!!! eeeek!!!. Now we will all have to go to
>> concentration camps set up by french illuminati space aliens, who
>> will force us to watch home and garden television.
>> Who will ever save us? We should demand that the military build 100
>> foot high glenn beck cyborgs to quash this insidious plot.
>> Imagine that, sick people wanting affordable health care so they dont
>> become homeless or die.. Gee don't they realize that they may just
>> deprive an insurance company executive of a toy or two. Jeeepers
>> creeepers!! Thanks for warning us there. Now lets all head into our
>> bomb shelters in an orderly fashion.

>LOL! How do you know the illuminati space aliens are french??

>namaste;
>bodhi

not french, they sounds like stonedsurferdudes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkW5PC6FLIc
bodhi
2010-03-15 17:25:35 UTC
Permalink
The jackboots are on the march ... fucking fascists!!

We are in serious trouble here folks!

The Healthcare Bill Would Be Obama’s ‘Enabling Act’
by Michael Zak
http://biggovernment.com/mzak/2010/03/13/the-healthcare-bill-would-be-obamas-enabling-act/

Why are Barack Obama and other Democrat leaders so intent on passing a
government takeover of healthcare now…Now…NOW?

They must know that costs will rise and the quality of care will fall,
right? They must know that Obamacare would destroy the economy,
right? Of course they do. But, they also know that the federal
government would tighten its grip on the nation. They know that
Obama’s czars and other appointees would be authorized to bypass
Congress in enacting sweeping regulations on nearly every aspect of a
person’s life. And, they know that these new powers of the federal
government would be concentrated in the hands of the Democratic Party
and the President.
Here’s what else they know. History affords many examples of regimes
whose motto was “Never let a crisis go to waste.” In 1933, having
campaigned for “hope” and “change,” the National Socialist Worker’s
Party forced through the German parliament a Law to Remedy the
Distress of the People and the Nation, also known as the Enabling Act.
This new law enabled the German chancellor and his appointees to
bypass parliament in imposing sweeping regulations on the people:
“In addition to the procedure prescribed by the constitution, laws of
the Reich may also be enacted by the government of the Reich [i.e.,
the Cabinet].”
The constitution of the Weimar Republic became so irrelevant that the
new regime never saw a need to actually repeal it.
By this vote, the National Socialist Workers Party assumed absolute
power and the Chancellor made history.

--------------------

namaste;
bodhi
sagetea
2010-03-15 19:09:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 15, 1:25 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> The jackboots are on the march ... fucking fascists!!
>
> We are in serious trouble here folks!
>
> The Healthcare Bill Would Be Obama’s ‘Enabling Act’
> by Michael Zakhttp://biggovernment.com/mzak/2010/03/13/the-healthcare-bill-would-be...
>
> Why are Barack Obama and other Democrat leaders so intent on passing a
> government takeover of healthcare now…Now…NOW?
>
> They must know that costs will rise and the quality of care will fall,
> right?   They must know that Obamacare would destroy the economy,
> right?   Of course they do.  But, they also know that the federal
> government would tighten its grip on the nation.   They know that
> Obama’s czars and other appointees would be authorized to bypass
> Congress in enacting sweeping regulations on nearly every aspect of a
> person’s life.   And, they know that these new powers of the federal
> government would be concentrated in the hands of the Democratic Party
> and the President.

No worries. We are not living in Nazi germany, Whats gonna happen is
that health care will become more affordable. Which means that the
economy will get better. If we leave it up to the robber baron
insurance executives the average person will not get any health care
but they will still demand tribute and get it, and they will use the
tribute money to team up with monsanto and verisign to buy up
everything and force people to become their slaves in order to eat. We
will be chipped with verisign chips that grow like bean pods in fields
controlled by monsanto. They will read your mind and send the rate
police after you, if they detect non compliant readings, And don't
even think about an aluminum foil hat to stop it as you will have to
have a prescription to buy aluminum foil.

Now on the other hand when the health care bill passes things will get
better.
Zen Coyote
2010-03-15 20:09:10 UTC
Permalink
>
> Now on the other hand when the health care bill passes things will get
> better.

If not, we can circle our wagons in Sedona. I'll bring coffee.
(Sorry Bodhi. couldn't resist)

Zen
bodhi
2010-03-16 05:18:19 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 15, 2:09 pm, Zen Coyote <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If not, we can circle our wagons in Sedona. I'll bring coffee.
> (Sorry Bodhi. couldn't resist)

Cool! Let's round up the usual suspects!

“I’m going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We’ll have
doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies,
drug companies — they’ll get a seat at the table, they just won’t be
able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we’ll have the
negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making
arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making
arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies.
And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to
stay involved in this process.”
- Presidential Candidate Barack Obama. August 2008

History Repeats Itself: Democrats to Force Through Obamacare during
the Same Week Hitler Officially Destroyed the German Republic 77 Years
Ago
MARCH 15, 2010
http://poedpatriot.blogspot.com/2010/03/history-repeats-itself-democrats-to.html

March 23, 1933 Adolf Hitler, and the Nazi Storm troopers, forced
through the German Parliament what was officially known as the "Law
Removing the Distress of the People in the Reich." (hmm sounds eerily
familiar) or Hitlers Enabling Act for short.

The Enabling Act would essentially destroy the German Republic by
giving Hitler unlimited power in order to restore "order" in Germany.
During a Speech to the German Parliament Hitler said:

"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are
essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures...The number of
cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to
such a law is in itself a limited one."

(Again Sounds eerily familiar)

Oddly enough, the Chaos that was being caused in Germany at the time
was being instigated by the Socialist NAZI party so that the people
would push to pass the Enabling act.

Of course these tactics are still used in the United States today
which is reflected in Obama's continued rhetoric of a "Health Care
Crisis" and Hillary Clinton's quote:

"Never let a Good Crisis Go to Waste."

Just like Obamacare, Hitler's enabling Act was a very tight vote.
Hitler needed 31 non-Nazi Votes to push the Enabling Act through
Parliament. But like all good Democratic Socialist Overthrows,
Hitler's Storm Troopers intimidated the German Parliament into passing
the Enabling Act thus effectively destroying the German Republic.

----------------

How could this have happened in America? The following article from
the Washington Post may hold a clue ......\

[...... of the susceptibility of all liberal democracies to fascism,
particularly in times of economic distress, political polarization,
and global instability.......]

Liberals under Nazism: lessons for today?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/shortstack/2009/10/history_books_are_very_much.html

It's a common belief that German liberal democrats fled their homeland
at the rise of Nazism, or at least resisted Nazi policies. Not so,
says historian Eric Kurlander in "Living With Hitler: Liberal
Democrats in the Third Reich," published in August by Yale University
Press. Many liberals stuck it out, even prospered. Kurlander, an
associate professor of history at Stetson University, wonders at their
actions and asks what their conduct might teach us about the rise of
authoritarian regimes.

History books are very much a product of their times. And this book,
conceived and written in the wake of 9/11, the Iraq War, Guantanamo,
and Katrina is no exception.

The questions are clear: How could liberal Germans-- the heirs to
Kant, Beethoven, and Einstein-- tolerate the Third Reich? How could
Germany's last remaining Democrats endorse Hitler's Emergency Decrees,
which suspended habeas corpus, or the Enabling Act, granting Hitler
power to enact legislation without parliamentary consent? Why did
liberals defend Hitler's foreign policy, including the preemptive
attack of Poland that initiated the Second World War?
How did they react as the state systematically disenfranchised,
arrested, and murdered thousands of German citizens and millions more
ethnic minorities?

"Living With Hitler" attempts to answer these questions by looking at
the experiences of German liberals -- namely the leaders of Germany's
liberal Democratic Party -- during the twelve years of Hitler's rule.

It shows, first, that German liberals shared many beliefs with their
Nazi rivals, and therefore favored some of Hitler's policies even as
they opposed National Socialism in other respects. Like the Nazis, the
liberals detested Communism and the Versailles Treaty, advocated a
right to national self-determination for all ethnic Germans, and
possessed nearly unbounded optimism toward science and technology.
They supported the Third Reich's Keynesian response to the Great
Depression, a moderately interventionist welfare state, and
corporatist arrangement between capital and labor. In terms of women's
issues, health care, and family policy, there were more than passing
affinities between liberal and Nazi programs as well.

Second, and despite understandable misperceptions to the contrary, the
Third Reich provided ample space for liberal criticism in public life
and across civil society, especially before the outbreak of the Second
World War. Liberals did encounter pressures to conform and
occasionally the threat of arrest. Yet these kinds of pressures --
including the necessity of joining Reich organizations, eschewing
"minority" hires and clients, or toeing a politically palatable line
-- were not qualitatively different from those imposed, for example,
on Wall Street or in the American South in the 1930s.

That is not to downplay the escalating persecution experienced by
individuals on the margins of the "people's community." Liberals
simply did not face the same risks or challenges as Communists and
Socialists, the disabled, or the putatively racially inferior. Hence,
when liberals failed to resist, at least intellectually, it had less
to do with fear of arrest than a tacit desire to accommodate specific
policies.

Only when confronted by the abject criminality of the regime did many
liberal democrats turn away from even a tentative endorsement of Nazi
foreign and domestic policies. Indeed, some Democrats acquiesced to
the 1933 laws limiting Jewish involvement in the civil service,
education, and the professions. But as anti-Semitic persecution
worsened many liberals did what they could to defend or assist Jewish
friends and associates.

German Democrats, therefore, reacted similarly to their liberal
colleagues in France, Great Britain, and the United States. On an
individual basis they expended substantial time, money, and effort
helping Jewish colleagues. On a conceptual level, however, their own
prejudices and preoccupations made it difficult for them to marshal a
coherent liberal alternative to Nazi anti-Semitism.

It may seem remarkable that liberals rationalized -- much less
embraced -- elements of National Socialism. But their ambivalence, I
would argue, is less a sign of German peculiarity vis-à-vis the United
States than it is a warning of the susceptibility of all liberal
democracies to fascism, particularly in times of economic distress,
political polarization, and global instability.

Take the nearly perfect storm of the 2001 recession and 9/11 attacks.
As the political right played Sorcerer's Apprentice to apocalyptic
fears of terrorism, socioeconomic dislocation, and ethno-cultural
decline, liberals witnessed the erosion of their increasingly
conservative middle class constituencies -- the same constituencies
that abandoned German liberalism in the wake of the Versailles Treaty
and the Great Depression.

Desperate to remain relevant, American liberals refused to trust their
better judgment. With remarkable complacency, they countenanced tax
cuts for the wealthiest; facilitated a preemptive war against a
country that posed no direct threat to the United States; and pushed
through the 2001 and 2006 Patriot Acts: not dissimilar from the 1933
Emergency Decrees or Enabling Act, these laws allow the Executive
branch to suspend habeas corpus, detaining, arresting, and --
apparently -- torturing individuals in the name of national security.

Like their German predecessors, American liberals could provide
idealistic reasons for these illiberal responses to the challenges of
the early 21st century. Many were seduced by the Wilsonian conviction
that America can make the world a better place through the force of
arms (It was the very failure of Wilson's utopian ideals at Versailles
that led to the rise of Hitler.)

The Patriot Act was not the first time, many pointed out, that some of
our constitutional rights were subordinated to national security in
the face of war. Others were motivated by the same emotional
patriotism and uncritical devotion to the state that clouded the
vision of many German liberals in 1933.

Unfortunately, our current administration faces the challenges it does
today in large part because liberal politicians, journalists, and
intellectuals failed to oppose, indeed, in some cases helped to
sponsor, a succession of authoritarian, imperialist, and xenophobic
policies that emerged during the first half of this decade.

It is undoubtedly a cliché to remind the reader that those who ignore
the past are doomed to repeat it. But I would like to think that
American liberals who read "Living With Hitler" will recognize
something of themselves in their German counterparts. Perhaps they
will act with greater courage and conviction in facing current
challenges, like overhauling our faltering health care system, dealing
with Iran's nuclear ambitions, or withdrawing a quarter million troops
from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Then again, perhaps they will not.

-------------------

namaste;
bodhi
whistler
2010-03-16 14:40:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 1:18 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, perhaps they will not.
> namaste;
> bodhi

Yep, in Bodhi world more is better, even if it's all crap.
Some DO; some Don't.... go figger.
Sanity
2010-03-16 15:03:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 9:40 am, whistler <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 16, 1:18 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Then again, perhaps they will not.
> > namaste;
> > bodhi
>
> Yep, in Bodhi world more is better, even if it's all crap.
>   Some DO; some Don't.... go figger.

I focused on the suspension of habeas corpus because it was one of the
reasons “submitted to a candid world” by the signers of the
Declaration of Independence for severing the political bands between
themselves and George III. That’s less government parentalism, not
“more.” There was a kernel of truth that is worthy of consideration
in Bodhi’s copy/paste, IMO.

I think the suspension of habeas corpus is THE Key and one of the
hallmarks of all tyrannies. Habeas corpus, a.k.a. the Great Writ of
Right, is either a right or it isn’t. If it’s a right all humans have
it, and when some humans don’t have it it’s because they are seen as
less than human.

Peace, Sanity
bodhi
2010-03-16 16:39:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 8:40 am, whistler <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yep, in Bodhi world more is better, even if it's all crap.
>   Some DO; some Don't.... go figger.

"Here you have the state, of shameful origin; for the greater part of
men a well of suffering that is never dried, a flame that consumes
them in its frequent crises. And yet when it calls, our souls become
forgetful of themselves; at its bloody appeal the multitude is urged
to courage and uplifted to heroism."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

namaste;
bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-16 23:04:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 11:39 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 16, 8:40 am, whistler <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Yep, in Bodhi world more is better, even if it's all crap.
> >   Some DO; some Don't.... go figger.
>
> "Here you have the state, of shameful origin; for the greater part of
> men a well of suffering that is never dried, a flame that consumes
> them in its frequent crises. And yet when it calls, our souls become
> forgetful of themselves; at its bloody appeal the multitude is urged
> to courage and uplifted to heroism."
> - Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

"Nietzsche is dead." - God
Sanity
2010-03-16 14:49:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 12:18 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> -snip-
>
> "The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are
> essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures...The number of
> cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to
> such a law is in itself a limited one."
>
> (Again Sounds eerily familiar)

Yup, mandatory trust all over again.

>
> Oddly enough, the Chaos that was being caused in Germany at the time
> was being instigated by the Socialist NAZI party so that the people
> would push to pass the Enabling act.
>
-snip-
>
> The questions are clear: How could liberal Germans-- the heirs to
> Kant, Beethoven, and Einstein-- tolerate the Third Reich? How could
> Germany's last remaining Democrats endorse Hitler's Emergency Decrees,
> which suspended habeas corpus,
-snip-
>
> It is undoubtedly a cliché to remind the reader that those who ignore
> the past are doomed to repeat it. But I would like to think that
> American liberals who read "Living With Hitler" will recognize
> something of themselves in their German counterparts. Perhaps they
> will act with greater courage and conviction in facing current
> challenges, like overhauling our faltering health care system, dealing
> with Iran's nuclear ambitions, or withdrawing a quarter million troops
> from Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> Then again, perhaps they will not.
>
> -------------------
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

Thanks Bodhi, good post!

I think the suspension of habeas corpus is THE Key and one of the
hallmarks of all tyrannies. Habeas corpus, a.k.a. the Great Writ of
Right, is either a right or it isn’t. If it’s a right all humans have
it, and when some humans don’t have it it’s because they are seen as
less than human.

I think habeas corpus needs to be adjudicated by common law juries
only. The way it is set up de facto in the US the oligarchy decides
whether the oligarchy is doing the right thing or not, and as always,
self justified under the umbrella excuse of ‘necessity.’ No check or
balance to the procedure at all. “Juries are the best check and
balance against judicial perfidy.” – Thomas Jefferson [quoted from
memory, might be paraphrased]

“But they’re terrorists!” Notice how the allegation strips away those
people’s rights and makes ‘em subhuman? Allegations are not
verdicts. Most if not all of the detainees at Guantanamo are there
solely because someone bad mouthed them or they were wearing towels on
their heads, but after nearly a decade they still haven’t had the
opportunity to present a defense [due process].

Enabling Act? The Catch 22 People never have concerned themselves
with paperwork... Torture is a crime against humanity!

Peace, Sanity
RiverMan
2010-03-15 08:40:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 14, 11:44 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh no martial law!!!!! eeeek!!!. Now we will all have to  go to
> concentration camps set up  by french illuminati  space aliens, who
> will force us to watch home and garden television.
> Who will ever save us? We should demand that the military  build 100
> foot high glenn beck cyborgs to quash this insidious plot.
> Imagine that, sick people wanting  affordable health care so they dont
> become homeless or die.. Gee don't they realize that they may just
> deprive an insurance company executive of a toy or two. Jeeepers
> creeepers!! Thanks for warning us there. Now lets all head into our
> bomb shelters  in an orderly fashion.

I guess it will be like living at a rainbow gathering... cops with
paintball guns walking all around my house

-=] RiverMan [=-
Sanity
2010-03-15 06:49:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 14, 11:13 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> "In the Slaughter Solution, the rule would declare that the House
> "deems" the Senate version of Obamacare to have been passed by the
> House. House members would still have to vote on whether to accept the
> rule, but they would then be able to say they only voted for a rule,
> not for the bill itself."
>
> Gee Wally, they never taught me that's how a Bill gets passed on
> School House Rock ......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ
>
> I wonder why .... could it possibly be .... er .....
> unconstitutional????
>
[chomp]

I have long since realized "they" don't care one whit about the
Constitution. Pass it w/o voting on it? They passed the Patriot Act
w/o reading it. What's the diff?
thistle
2010-03-17 01:21:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 15, 12:13 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> "In the Slaughter Solution, the rule would declare that the House
> "deems" the Senate version of Obamacare to have been passed by the
> House. House members would still have to vote on whether to accept the
> rule, but they would then be able to say they only voted for a rule,
> not for the bill itself."

I hate all these stupid procedural tricks used to get bills through
the house and the senate. I hate deem and pass resolutions,
reconciliation, filibusters, omnibus bills, attaching totally
unrelated bills to "must pass" legislation like budgets and military
expenditure acts. I wish the congress would just use the constitution,
vote on the damn bills, if there's a tie vote in the senate the vice
president breaks the tie. Clean, clear, simple democracy.

But most of all I hate the republicans lying about those stupid
procedural tricks.

Deem and pass resolutions were not invented by Slaughter. They've been
used rarely for almost a century. As usual during the bush years the
republicans in their desire to use any means to get their agenda
through the congress began to use deem and pass resolutions all the
damn time. Nearly 40 times in 2005 and 2006. They used it so often
that Nader sued the government and tried to get it declared
unconstitutional. Pelosi and Slaughter joined Nader in the attempt to
stop the use of deem and pass resolutions. The courts declared deem
and pass resolutions constitutional.

The courts declared that deem and pass resolutions were constitutional
so when the democrats gained control of the congress in 2007 they
began to do the same thing the republicans did. The democratic party
used deem and pass resolutions about the same amount as the
republicans did. After being used about 80 times in the last 5 years,
about the same amount of times by republicans and democrats, now,
suddenly, its the equivalent of a declaration of martial law.

There's no doubt that the republican politicians know damn well that
deem and pass resolutions have been used over and over and over again
by both republicans and democrats. So those republican politicians
spreading this nonsense are lying. Bodhi has assured me time after
time that he believes every word in every article he posts so if I
take him at his word I must conclude he's just an ignorant tool of the
right wing propaganda machine.

>
> Gee Wally, they never taught me that's how a Bill gets passed on
> School House Rock ......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ
>
> I wonder why .... could it possibly be .... er .....
> unconstitutional????
>
> RED ALERT: We Are Now Living Under Martial Law -- House Democrats
> Appear Set to Pass Senate Bill Without Voting On Ithttp://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/03/red-alert-we-are-now-living-...
>
> The Washington Examiner reports that House Democrats appear poised to
> adopt a rule that would pass the Senate health care bill without
> actually voting on it.
>
> Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) is preparing to pass the health care
> overhaul through the House of Representatives without a vote, as was
> originally reported by the National Journal's Congress Daily. Mark
> Tapscott observes that such a maneuver would be the penultimate
> refutation of the people's will.
>
> In the Slaughter Solution, the rule would declare that the House
> "deems" the Senate version of Obamacare to have been passed by the
> House. House members would still have to vote on whether to accept the
> rule, but they would then be able to say they only voted for a rule,
> not for the bill itself.
>
> Thus, Slaughter is preparing a rule that would consider the Senate
> bill "passed" once the House approves a corrections bill that would
> make changes. Democrats would thereby avoid a direct vote on the
> health care bill while allowing it to become law!
>
> Constitutional attorney Mark R. Levin asks, "They're going to present
> a rule, issued by her committee as chairman, that says that the House
> already adopted the Senate bill when we know it didn't?"
>
> U.S Constitution, Article I, Section VII, Clause II.
>
> Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and
> the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the
> President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if
> not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it
> shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on
> their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such
> Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill,
> it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by
> which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds
> of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes
> of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of
> the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the
> Journal of each House respectively...
>
> According to Levin, James Madison himself gave special care and
> attention to this clause in the Constitution.
>
> Levin: And do you want to know why? Because this clause goes to the
> heart of this Republic.
>
> This clause goes to the heart of how our representative body, that is
> Congress, makes laws. And so I want you to [observe] how particular
> the Framers were... They have to pass a Bill to present it to the
> President...
>
> This is one of the most exacting clauses in the Constitution.
>
> And, to the best of my knowledge, which extends over three decades, no
> Congress has previously tried to institute policies without actual
> statutes.
>
> Here we have the President of the United States and Congressional
> leaders actually talking about the possibility of a brazen and open
> violation of one of the most fundamental aspects of our Constitution
> and Republic! How we actually make laws!
>
> Let me be as clear as I know how. If this is done, this will create
> the greatest Constitutional crisis since the Civil War. It would be
> 100 times worse than Watergate.
>
> ...It would be government by fiat... meaning there would be no law...
> the mere discussion by officials in this government is such a
> grotesque violation of the actual legislative function of Congress
> [that it] puts us... at the brink. At the brink.
>
> This is why we conservatives revere the Constitution. This is why we
> stress the Constitution's words have meaning and historical context
> and must be complied with. Because otherwise we have anarchy, which
> leads to tyranny.
>
> This is a crucial lesson for those of you who... aren't sure what your
> beliefs are, or if you have any beliefs. Or aren't sure if you even
> care. We have an effort underway by the one of the most powerful
> chairmen in Congress, the woman who heads the Rules
> Committee, ...openly discussing gutting Congress. Gutting Congress.
>
> And if this is done, this is about as close to martial law as you'll
> ever get... So Louise Slaughter, a Representative from New York, is
> discussing, in essence, martial law. Now I can tell you, if they
> pursue this process, and try to impose this kind of a law, without
> actually passing a statute, that I will be in a race -- with scores of
> others -- to the courthouse to stop this.
>
> I can't think of a more blatant violation of the U.S. Constitution
> than this. And the liberal media has essentially ignored it!
>
> ...It's not only absurd on its face -- that these power-hungry
> ideologues, party-first-country-second types, would make the claim
> that the House voted on something it never voted on... that's not only
> absurd on its face, it's blatantly unconstitutional!
>
> Please stay tuned for updates to this post as we will provide
> additional insight from Levin and other Constitutional experts.
>
> Update 11-March-2010 21:03 ET:
>
> Levin: I wanted to bring additional firepower on this subject, my
> buddy Arthur Fergenson, who is a Constitutional expert and who has
> argued cases in front of the Supreme Court, including Buckley vs.
> Valeo...
>
> What do you make of this unbelievable -- that they're even talking
> about, this chairman of the Rules Committee -- acting as if members of
> the House voted on something when they didn't actually vote on it?
>
> Fergenson: It's preposterous. It's ludicrous. But it's also dangerous.
> It's dangerous because, first, ...because [the U.S. Constitution's]
> Article I Section VII says every bill -- and it capitalized "bill"
> -- ...it is common sense that the bill is the same item, it can't be
> multiple bills, it can't be mashups of bills. And, in fact, in 1986,
> Gene Gressman, no conservative, and one of the experts -- the expert
> -- on Supreme Court practice... was writing an article that was
> dealing with a less problematic attempt to get around this section of
> the Constitution... [Ed: the line-item veto] and he wrote, "By long
> usage and plain meaning, 'Bill' means any singular and entire piece of
> legislation in the form it was approved by the two houses."
>
> ...the bills have to be revoted until they are identical. Both
> chambers have to vote on the bill.
>
> If this cockamamie proposal were to be followed by the House and there
> were to be a bill presented to the President for his signature, that
> was a bill that had not been voted on -- identically by the two Houses
> of Congress -- that bill would be a nullity. It is not law. That is
> chaos.
>
> I cannot recall any circumstance in which that has happened.
>
> ...What we have here is a measure, that if Obama signed it, would
> immediately affect taxation, it would change rules of practice in the
> insurance industry, it would regulate 17% of the nation's economy, and
> it would be done without any legal basis whatsoever!
>
> Update 11-March-2010 21:12 ET:
>
> Fergenson: It's like, the closest I can think of is martial law! The
> President would have no authority -- there would be no law! It's not
> like it would be constitutional or not. There would be. No. Law.
>
> Levin: What do you make of people who sit around and even think of
> things like this? To me, they are absolutely unfit to even be in high
> office!
>
> Fergenson: You're right, Mark. And I would go back to what caused
> Gressman to write this... he was asked for his comments by the
> Senate... because the Senate was trying to do the equivalent of a line-
> item veto. And, in 1986, you were in the Justice Department under
> Attorney General Meese... there was a proposal... to take a bill and
> divide it into little pieces and.. then the President would sign each
> one or veto each one. That was unconstitutional. A Senate Rules
> Committee reported it unfavorably.
>
> Update 11-March-2010 21:36 ET:
>
> Levin: You know what's interesting about this... Attorney General Ed
> Meese considered it unconstitutional even though President Reagan had
> wanted a line-item veto. And President Reagan agreed that it was
> unconstitutional without an amendment to the Constitution...
>
> ...Speaking for myself, I would tell the people who listen to this
> program that you are under absolutely no obligation to comply with it
> [this health care bill] because it is not, in fact, law. Do you agree
> with me?
>
> Fergenson: I agree with you. I believe it would be tested by the
> Supreme Court. I believe that, under these circumstances, chaos would
> reign. There is no obligation to obey an unconstitutional law. The
> courts are empowered to determine whether it's unconstitutional...
> it's not a law.
>
> Under this scenario, the various arms of the federal government will
> be acting under a law that does not exist.
>
> -----------------------
>
> namaste;
> bodhi
bodhi
2010-03-17 08:48:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 7:21 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I hate all these stupid procedural tricks used to get bills through
> the house and the senate. I hate deem and pass resolutions,
> reconciliation, filibusters, omnibus bills, attaching totally
> unrelated bills to "must pass" legislation like budgets and military
> expenditure acts. I wish the congress would just use the constitution,
> vote on the damn bills, if there's a tie vote in the senate the vice
> president breaks the tie. Clean, clear, simple democracy.

yeah right, the good ole days. Just remember - those who don't learn
from History are doomed to repeat it -

"On March 23, 1933, the newly elected members of the German Parliament
(the Reichstag) met in the Kroll Opera House in Berlin to consider
passing Hitler's Enabling Act. It was officially called the 'Law for
Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich.' If passed, it
would effectively mean the end of democracy in Germany and establish
the legal dictatorship of Adolf Hitler.

On the day of the vote, Nazi storm troopers gathered in a show of
force around the opera house chanting, "Full powers - or else! We want
the bill - or fire and murder!!" They also stood inside in the
hallways, and even lined the aisles where the vote would take place,
glaring menacingly at anyone who might oppose Hitler's will.

Just before the vote, Hitler made a speech to the Reichstag in which
he pledged to use restraint.

"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are
essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures...The number of
cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to
such a law is in itself a limited one." - Hitler told the Reichstag.

He also promised an end to unemployment and pledged to promote peace
with France, Great Britain and the Soviet Union. But in order to do
all this, Hitler said, he first needed the Enabling Act.

A two thirds majority was needed, since the law would actually alter
the German constitution. Hitler needed 31 non-Nazi votes to pass it.
He got those votes from the Center Party after making a false promise
to restore some basic rights already taken away by decree.

However, one man arose amid the overwhelming might. Otto Wells, leader
of the Social Democrats stood up and spoke quietly to Hitler.

"We German Social Democrats pledge ourselves solemnly in this historic
hour to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and
socialism. No enabling act can give you power to destroy ideas which
are eternal and indestructible."

This enraged Hitler and he jumped up to respond.

"You are no longer needed! - The star of Germany will rise and yours
will sink! Your death knell has sounded!"

The vote was taken - 441 for, only 84, the Social Democrats, against.
The Nazis leapt to their feet clapping, stamping and shouting, then
broke into the Nazi anthem, the Hörst Wessel song.

They achieved what Hitler had wanted for years - to tear down the
German Democratic Republic legally and end democracy, thus paving the
way for a complete Nazi takeover of Germany.

From this day on, the Reichstag would be just a sounding board, a
cheering section for Hitler's pronouncements.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/enabling.htm

LOL! I can just see the Democrats - chanting, "Full powers - or else!
We want the bill - or fire and murder!!"

>
> But most of all I hate the republicans lying about those stupid
> procedural tricks.

You just don't get it do you Thistle - these "stupid procedural
tricks" ordinarily used to correct technical differences between bills
are now being used to pass a trillion dollar social legislation bill
that will affect million of Americans for generations to come because
it's MANDATORY. This is no longer a partisan issue, it's an AMERICAN
issue.
Sure these "stupid procedural tricks" have been used over the years by
both Democrats and Republicans but not on this scale and not with a
bill that is so universally unpopular that Democrats are afraid to
publicly acknowledge they signed the damn thing.

>
> Deem and pass resolutions were not invented by Slaughter. They've been
> used rarely for almost a century. As usual during the bush years the
> republicans in their desire to use any means to get their agenda
> through the congress began to use deem and pass resolutions all the
> damn time. Nearly 40 times in 2005 and 2006. They used it so often
> that Nader sued the government and tried to get it declared
> unconstitutional. Pelosi and Slaughter joined Nader in the attempt to
> stop the use of deem and pass resolutions. The courts declared deem
> and pass resolutions constitutional.

In 2006 George Bush signed into law a Budget Reconciliation bill. The
Democrats went apeshit over it and went to federal court to challenge
the constitutionality of the bill.

Wanna know why??

"House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi introduced a privileged
resolution on the House floor today regarding the culture of
corruption surrounding the Budget Reconciliation bill. The motion
asked for an ethics investigation into the abuse of power surrounding
the bill because Republican House leaders sent to the President for
his signature into law a bill they knew was different from what the
Senate had passed. This was in direct violation of House rules,
precedents, and the Constitution. Republicans killed Pelosi's
resolution without debate. Their motion passed on a party-line vote.

"Once again, Republican leaders have burned the book on how our laws
are made. Every elementary student knows that the exact same bill must
pass the House and the Senate first, before it can be signed into law
by the President.

"But on February 8, President Bush signed a version of the Budget
Reconciliation bill that only passed the Senate; that bill is invalid.

"This happened with the full knowledge of House Republican leaders and
because of the abuse of power by Republicans in Congress. Republican
leaders chose to ignore House rules, precedents, and even the
Constitution itself.

"That is just not right, and it is why, I offered this privileged
resolution calling for an ethics committee investigation into the
abuse of power surrounding the Budget Reconciliation bill. The
American people deserve honest leadership and open government. And
once again, the Republicans have chosen to sweep this under the rug
and not even debate my resolution. This is yet another example of the
Republican culture of corruption."

What was the fuss all about? What was it that defined the Republican's
"abuse of power"??

A clerical error!!

"According to Public Citizen's brief, when engrossing the final
version of the bill that passed the Senate for transmittal to the
House, a clerk made a "substantive change" to a section of the bill,
altering the duration of a Medicare payment provision from 13 months
to 36 months. Subsequently, the House voted on the engrossed version
of the bill, "which contained the clerk's error and, therefore, was
not identical to the version of the bill passed by the Senate." After
the House returned the legislation to the Senate for transmission to
Bush, a clerk changed the Medicare provision's duration from 36 months
back to 13 months. Thus, different versions of the bill had passed the
House and the Senate; Bush subsequently signed a version that had only
passed the Senate."

Big fucking deal!

"The Slaughter solution attempts to allow the House to pass the Senate
bill, plus a bill amending it, with a single vote. The senators would
then vote only on the amendatory bill. But this means that no single
bill will have passed both houses in the same form. As the Supreme
Court wrote in Clinton v. City of New York (1998), a bill containing
the “exact text” must be approved by one house; the other house must
approve “precisely the same text.
- ”The Slaughter Rule: Yet Another Reason Obamacare Would Be
Unconstitutional
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/15/the-slaughter-rule-yet-another-reason-obamacare-will-be-unconstitutional/

>
> The courts declared that deem and pass resolutions were constitutional
> so when the democrats gained control of the congress in 2007 they
> began to do the same thing the republicans did. The democratic party
> used deem and pass resolutions about the same amount as the
> republicans did. After being used about 80 times in the last 5 years,
> about the same amount of times by republicans and democrats,

"As Stanford law professor Michael McConnell pointed out in these
pages yesterday, “The Slaughter solution attempts to allow the House
to pass the Senate bill, plus a bill amending it, with a single vote.
The senators would then vote only on the amendatory bill. But this
means that no single bill will have passed both houses in the same
form.” If Congress can now decide that the House can vote for one bill
and the Senate can vote for another, and the final result can be some
arbitrary hybrid, then we have abandoned one of Madison’s core checks
and balances. Yes, self-executing rules have been used in the past,
but as the Congressional Research Service put it in a 2006 paper,
“Originally, this type of rule was used to expedite House action in
disposing of Senate amendments to House-passed bills.” They’ve also
been used for amendments such as to a 1998 bill that “would have
permitted the CIA to offer employees an early-out retirement program”—
but never before to elide a vote on the entire fundamental
legislation."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703909804575123512773070080.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_mediu

now,
> suddenly, its the equivalent of a declaration of martial law.

yep, and perhaps you need to go back to skool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

namaste;
bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-17 11:45:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 3:48 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> -snip-
>
> "As Stanford law professor Michael McConnell pointed out in these
> pages yesterday, “The Slaughter solution attempts to allow the House
> to pass the Senate bill, plus a bill amending it, with a single vote.
> The senators would then vote only on the amendatory bill. But this
> means that no single bill will have passed both houses in the same
> form.” If Congress can now decide that the House can vote for one bill
> and the Senate can vote for another, and the final result can be some
> arbitrary hybrid, then we have abandoned one of Madison’s core checks
> and balances.  Yes, self-executing rules have been used in the past,
> -snip-
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYmhlclqr4&NR=1
There is a big difference between prescriptions for governments as
written (de jure) and the way they work in the real world (de facto).
“President” is just a euphemism for “king” and always has been. Dubya
was the US Gummint’s 3d "George" ... bad luck?

I focused on the phrase “self-executing rules” right away; it’s a
*metonymy* side-step con artist’s dodge, supported solely by ‘color of
office,’ and used to shift responsibility from living people to
inanimate objects. The phrase “self-executing rules” is a lie, for
there is no such thing. If it were within the power of human
legislation to write laws or rules that were “self-executing” there
would be no need for an executive magistracy of government to execute
the law, or a judicial magistracy as check and balance against
executive perfidy; the legislature would only need to pen a remedy for
it to be manifest.
“Metonymy” = the use of a noun in place of another noun closely
associated with it.

The Gummint uses the metonymy dodge in its propaganda all the time and
the practice has become so commonplace folks don’t even notice. The
Whitehouse (inanimate office) is incapable of speech [never actually
says anything] and cannot be held accountable, Congress (inanimate
office) is not responsible for what congressmen and congresswomen
(officers) do, and the Supreme Court (inanimate office) cannot and
does not rule (the unelected just-us clique oligarchy Rules!). Nah,
in the real world Snoopy RULES!

“He makes the rules and he intends to keep it that-a-way. What’s good
for General Bullmoose, is good for the USA!” – Al Capp

Metonymy is the curtain behind which the Wizard of Awes hides; awe
being the emotion of idolaters... Toto wasn’t fooled! I realize my
sentiment is not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure general
favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. I am an iconoclast and cannot
worship either the dead Framers of US Gummint or the Constitution they
left behind them the de facto government pays no attention to; dead
people cannot govern the living, and neither is even the quasi holy US
Constitution itself “self-executing.” [Isn’t “self-execution” another
way of saying “suicide”?]

This is my version of logical empiricism, your mileage may vary.

Peace, Sanity
thistle
2010-03-17 11:52:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 4:48 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 16, 7:21 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I hate all these stupid procedural tricks used to get bills through
> > the house and the senate. I hate deem and pass resolutions,
> > reconciliation, filibusters, omnibus bills, attaching totally
> > unrelated bills to "must pass" legislation like budgets and military
> > expenditure acts. I wish the congress would just use the constitution,
> > vote on the damn bills, if there's a tie vote in the senate the vice
> > president breaks the tie. Clean, clear, simple democracy.
>
> yeah right, the good ole days. Just remember - those who don't learn
> from History are doomed to repeat it -
>
> "On March 23, 1933, the newly elected members of the German Parliament
> (the Reichstag) met in the Kroll Opera House in Berlin to consider
> passing Hitler's Enabling Act. It was officially called the 'Law for
> Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich.' If passed, it
> would effectively mean the end of democracy in Germany and establish
> the legal dictatorship of Adolf Hitler.

OK bodhi, You say you truly believe this nonsense you post and I'll
accept that. You're not just posting this right wing nonsense to
create drama and draw attention to yourself. You really do believe it.
You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
camps. Its not some pose or prank. You have some mental issues. You've
told us you used to get a psych check. What was the diagnosis,
paranoid schizophrenic?

While it is possible that the economic crisis could cause a world wide
collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near future. Even if that
happened there is nothing in the health care bill that would help the
president or the congress to declare martial law or to diminish
freedoms or to control the people. It gives no additional powers to
the president or the congress.

Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration camps.
bodhi
2010-03-17 15:51:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 5:52 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> OK bodhi, You say you truly believe this nonsense you post and I'll
> accept that. You're not just posting this right wing nonsense to
> create drama and draw attention to yourself. You really do believe it.
> You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
> cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
> camps. Its not some pose or prank. You have some mental issues. You've
> told us you used to get a psych check. What was the diagnosis,
> paranoid schizophrenic?
>
> While it is possible that the economic crisis could cause a world wide
> collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near future. Even if that
> happened there is nothing in the health care bill that would help the
> president or the congress to declare martial law or to diminish
> freedoms or to control the people. It gives no additional powers to
> the president or the congress.
>
> Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
> get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
> that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration camps.

oooooo am I being dismissed here?

Not so fast.

First, you say "While it is possible that the economic crisis could
cause a world wide collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near
future."

I only have two words to say to that

"Commercial Real Estate"

O.K. THREE words.

Commercial Real Estate Could Be Next Economic Threat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBmvVxmivLM
(spoken slooooowly so that you can understand - or try reading her
lips!)

Economic Recession, Depression, or Systematic Breakdown

"As crooked politicians, Federal Reserve hacks, and cheerleading media
pundits inform you the recession is over, you probably have a sneaking
suspicion they are lying."
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17665.html

Your second stupid statement was:

"You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
camps."

From the Progressive:
We Came an Inch from Martial Law, Bush Justice Department Memos Reveal
By Matthew Rothschild, March 3, 2009
http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx030309.html

It turns out that some of our most paranoid fears about the Bush
Administration had a basis in reality.

The Bush Justice Department, if you can call it that, issued legal
opinions in late 2001 asserting that the President had the authority
to use the military within the US against suspected terrorists, and
that he could use the military to barge into your home without a
warrant.

“The warrant and probable cause requirements . . . are unsuited to the
demands of wartime and the military necessity to successfully
prosecute a war against an enemy,” said an October 23, 2001, memo.

The authors were John Yoo, who was then deputy assistant attorney
general, and Robert Delahunty, who was special counsel at the Justice
Department. And they sent the memo to Alberto Gonzales, then the
counsel to the President.

Domestic eavesdropping without a warrant was also OK, according to
Bush lawyers at Justice.

They also said the President could unilaterally abrogate treaties, and
that Congress had no say-so over the treatment of detainees.

Yoo and Delahunty clearly contemplated waging war here at home.

“Efforts to fight terrorism may require not only the usual wartime
regulations of domestic affairs, but also military actions that have
normally occurred abroad,” said the Yoo-Delahunty memo.

It contemplated using the U.S. military in the United States for
“attacking civilian targets, such as apartment buildings, offices, or
ships where suspected terrorists were thought to be; and employing
electronic surveillance methods more powerful and sophisticated than
those available to law enforcement agencies.” And it recognized that
these actions could be “involving as they might American citizens.”

It said the decision to use the military this way lies entirely in the
President’s hands. “It also bears emphasizing again that it rests
within the President’s discretion to determine when certain
circumstances . . . justify using the military to intervene.”

Yoo and Delahunty also proposed shelving the First Amendment.

“First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to
the overriding need to wage war successfully,” they wrote.

This was an “Everything Must Go” fire sale from the Bill of Rights.

And we’re just lucky we somehow managed to escape without getting too
singed.

Now Senator Leahy is proposing a Truth Commission.

We need that—and prosecutions—if we are to find out not only just how
close we came to a fascist government over the last eight years but
also how to prevent that slide in the future.

----------------

"Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration
camps."

Go back to burying your head in the sand, Thistle

namaste;
bodhi
bodhi
2010-03-17 18:38:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 5:52 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK bodhi, You say you truly believe this nonsense you post and I'll
> accept that. You're not just posting this right wing nonsense to
> create drama and draw attention to yourself. You really do believe it.
> You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
> cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
> camps. Its not some pose or prank. You have some mental issues. You've
> told us you used to get a psych check. What was the diagnosis,
> paranoid schizophrenic?
>
> While it is possible that the economic crisis could cause a world wide
> collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near future. Even if that
> happened there is nothing in the health care bill that would help the
> president or the congress to declare martial law or to diminish
> freedoms or to control the people. It gives no additional powers to
> the president or the congress.
>
> Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
> get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
> that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration camps.

oooooo am I being dismissed here?

Not so fast.

First, you say "While it is possible that the economic crisis could
cause a world wide collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near
future."
I only have two words to say to that

"Commercial Real Estate"

O.K. THREE words.
Commercial Real Estate Could Be Next Economic Threat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBmvVxmivLM
(spoken slooooowly so that you can understand - or try reading her
lips!)

Economic Recession, Depression, or Systematic Breakdown
"As crooked politicians, Federal Reserve hacks, and cheerleading media
pundits inform you the recession is over, you probably have a sneaking
suspicion they are lying."
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17665.html

Your second stupid statement was:

"Even if that happened there is nothing in the health care bill that
would help the president or the congress to declare martial law or to
diminish freedoms or to control the people. It gives no additional
powers to the president or the congress."

Never said it did. However, like Hitler's Enabling Act, it bypasses
the Constitution.

Remember the Constitution???

Your third stupid statement was:

"You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
camps."

From the Progressive:
We Came an Inch from Martial Law, Bush Justice Department Memos
Reveal
By Matthew Rothschild, March 3, 2009
http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx030309.html

It turns out that some of our most paranoid fears about the Bush
Administration had a basis in reality.
The Bush Justice Department, if you can call it that, issued legal
opinions in late 2001 asserting that the President had the authority
to use the military within the US against suspected terrorists, and
that he could use the military to barge into your home without a
warrant.

“The warrant and probable cause requirements . . . are unsuited to the
demands of wartime and the military necessity to successfully
prosecute a war against an enemy,” said an October 23, 2001, memo.

The authors were John Yoo, who was then deputy assistant attorney
general, and Robert Delahunty, who was special counsel at the Justice
Department. And they sent the memo to Alberto Gonzales, then the
counsel to the President.
Domestic eavesdropping without a warrant was also OK, according to
Bush lawyers at Justice.
They also said the President could unilaterally abrogate treaties, and
that Congress had no say-so over the treatment of detainees.
Yoo and Delahunty clearly contemplated waging war here at home.

“Efforts to fight terrorism may require not only the usual wartime
regulations of domestic affairs, but also military actions that have
normally occurred abroad,” said the Yoo-Delahunty memo.

It contemplated using the U.S. military in the United States for
“attacking civilian targets, such as apartment buildings, offices, or
ships where suspected terrorists were thought to be; and employing
electronic surveillance methods more powerful and sophisticated than
those available to law enforcement agencies.” And it recognized that
these actions could be “involving as they might American citizens.”
It said the decision to use the military this way lies entirely in the
President’s hands. “It also bears emphasizing again that it rests
within the President’s discretion to determine when certain
circumstances . . . justify using the military to intervene.”

Yoo and Delahunty also proposed shelving the First Amendment.
“First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to
the overriding need to wage war successfully,” they wrote.
This was an “Everything Must Go” fire sale from the Bill of Rights.
And we’re just lucky we somehow managed to escape without getting too
singed.

Now Senator Leahy is proposing a Truth Commission.
We need that—and prosecutions—if we are to find out not only just how
close we came to a fascist government over the last eight years but
also how to prevent that slide in the future.

----------------
"Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration
camps."

Go back to burying your head in the sand, Thistle

namaste;
bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-17 18:47:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 1:38 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:52 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> -snip-
>
> Go back to burying your head in the sand, Thistle
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

This appears to be in agreement with your 'Enabling Act' stuff Bodhi.
I just got it in my inbox, haven't read the Bill myself or cross-
checked it for accuracy etc. but whoever wrote it can certainly read
and write...
***************************************************************************

This letter appeared in the Indianapolis Star (which is owned by the
same people who own the Arizona Republic ) and was sent to a very
popular Indiana Senator. This just goes to show everyone what
pressure these Democrats are currently under, so continue to let them
know how you feel about the healthcare bill.
Bill Stough

Shock to NBC This morning.



An Indianapolis doctor's letter to Sen. Bayh about the Bill
(Note: Dr. Stephen E. Fraser, MD practices as an anesthesiologist
in Indianapolis, IN ) Here is a letter I sent to Senator Bayh..
Feel free to copy it and send it around to all other
representatives. -- Stephen Fraser



Senator Bayh,

As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the health care
bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by
the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the
patient-physician relationship. The very idea that the government
will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not
helpful in designing a health care system that works for all. Every
physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our health care
system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through
congress will be a disaster if passed.

I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the
following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot
possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of
the country and our fellow citizens.

Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of
all employers that self-insure!!

Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that
decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose
your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US
citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals'
finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued!(Papers
please!)

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your
bank accounts for elective funds transfer. (Time for more cash and
carry)

Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their
families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for
private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans
-- The Govt will ration your health care!

Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate
services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e. ACORN &
Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans.
(AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)
Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be
automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing.
No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association -
The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into
public option plan. (NO choice!)

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time
employees ANDtheir families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about
this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits,
and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense.)

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who
does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See
the last comment in parenthesis.)
Page 150 Lines 9-13: A business with payroll between $251K & $401K
who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC
according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from
individual taxes. (Americans will pay.) (Like always)

Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin.. will
have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records. (I
guess so they can 'deduct' their fees)

Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section shall
not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!) ( a 'fee'
instead)
Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for
Medicaid Seniors. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty
you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just
TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time,
profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for
"private" HC industries.

Page 268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the rental and
purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer
patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the
Govt deems preventable (i.e...re-admissions).

Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial
admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govtwill penalize
you.

Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt
tells doctors what and how much they can own!)

Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt
is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)
Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception
BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)

Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: The Govt mandates establishment of=2
outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)
Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare
Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)

Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special
needs people!' Unbelievable!

Page 379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-
Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)

Page 425 Lines 4-12: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning
Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)

Page 425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding
living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's
mandatory!)
Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an "approved"
list of end-of-life resources; guiding you in death. (Also called
'assisted suicide.')(Sounds like Soylent Green to me.)

Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-
of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be
used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an
ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE
GOVERNMENT?!?)

Page 429 Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write
an end-of-life order.. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after
getting paid for THAT job!)

Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment
you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)

Page 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit
Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)

Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy.
(Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including
defining, creating, and rationing those services.


Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible
to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the
proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.

Furthermore, if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized
medicine on the country and destroys the doctor-patient relationship,
I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in
the next election.

Respectfully,

Stephen E. Fraser, MD

Dear Reader,

I urge you to use the power that you were born with (and the power
that may soon be taken away) and circulate this email to as many
people as you can reach. The Power of the People can stop this from
happening to us, our parents, our grandparents, our children, and to
following generations
bodhi
2010-03-17 21:24:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 12:47 pm, Sanity <sanity-***@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:38 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:52 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > -snip-
>
> > Go back to burying your head in the sand, Thistle
>
> > namaste;
> > bodhi
>
> This appears to be in agreement with your 'Enabling Act' stuff Bodhi.
> I just got it in my inbox, haven't read the Bill myself or cross-
> checked it for accuracy etc. but whoever wrote it can certainly read
> and write...
> ***************************************************************************
>
> This letter appeared in the Indianapolis Star (which is owned by the
> same people who own the Arizona Republic ) and was sent to a very
> popular Indiana Senator.  This just goes to show everyone what
> pressure these Democrats are currently under, so continue to let them
> know how you feel about the healthcare bill.
> Bill Stough
>
> Shock to NBC This morning.
>
>  An   Indianapolis doctor's letter to Sen. Bayh about  the Bill
> (Note:   Dr. Stephen E. Fraser, MD practices as an  anesthesiologist
> in Indianapolis, IN  )   Here is a  letter I sent to Senator Bayh..
> Feel free to  copy it and send it around to all other
> representatives. -- Stephen  Fraser
>
> Senator  Bayh,
>
> As a practicing  physician I have major concerns with the health  care
> bill before Congress. I actually have read  the bill and am shocked by
> the brazenness of the  government's proposed involvement in the
> patient-physician relationship. The very idea  that the government
> will dictate and ration  patient care is dangerous and certainly not
> helpful in designing a health care system that  works for all. Every
> physician I work with  agrees that we need to fix our health care
> system, but the proposed bills currently making  their way through
> congress will be a disaster if  passed.
>
> I ask you  respectfully and as a patriotic American to look  at the
> following troubling lines that I have  read in the bill. You cannot
> possibly believe  that these proposals are in the best interests  of
> the country and our fellow  citizens.
>
> Page 22  of the HC Bill:  Mandates that the Govt  will audit books of
> all employers that  self-insure!!
>
> Page 30 Sec 123  of HC bill:   THERE WILL BE A GOVT  COMMITTEE that
> decides what treatments/benefits  you get.
>
> Page 29 lines 4-16 in  the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS  RATIONED!!!
>
> Page 42 of HC  Bill:  The Health Choices Commissioner  will choose
> your HC benefits for you. You have  no choice!
>
> Page 50 Section 152  in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL  non-US
> citizens, illegal or  otherwise.
>
> Page  58 HC Bill:  Govt will have real-time  access to individuals'
> finances & a  'National ID Health card' will be  issued!(Papers
> please!)
>
> Page  59 HC Bill lines 21-24:  Govt will have  direct access to your
> bank accounts for elective  funds transfer. (Time  for more cash and
> carry)
>
> Page 65  Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for  retirees and their
> families in unions &  community organizations:  (ACORN).
>
> Page 84 Sec 203 HC  bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages  for
> private HC plans in the  'Exchange.'
>
> Page 85 Line  7 HC Bill:  Specifications of Benefit  Levels for Plans
> -- The Govt  will ration your health  care!
>
> Page 91 Lines 4-7  HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic  appropriate
> services.  (Translation:  illegal aliens.)
>
> Page 95  HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use  groups (i.e. ACORN &
> Americorps to sign up  individuals for Govt HC  plan.
>
> Page 85 Line 7 HC  Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels  for Plans.
> (AARP members - your health care WILL  be rationed!)
> Page 102  Lines 12-18 HC Bill:  Medicaid eligible  individuals will be
> automatically enrolled in  Medicaid.  (No choice.)
>
> Page  12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue  GOVT on price fixing.
> No "judicial review"  against Govt monopoly.
>
> Page 127  Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American  Medical Association -
> The Govt will tell YOU  what salary you can make.
>
> Page  145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST  auto-enroll employees into
> public option  plan. (NO choice!)
>
> Page  126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for  HC for part-time
> employees ANDtheir  families.  (Employees shouldn't get excited  about
> this as employers will be forced to reduce  its work force, benefits,
> and wages/salaries to  cover such a huge  expense.)
>
> Page 149 Lines  16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k  & above who
> does not provide public option  will pay 8% tax on all payroll!  (See
> the  last comment in  parenthesis.)
> Page 150  Lines 9-13: A business with payroll  between $251K & $401K
> who doesn't provide  public option will pay 2-6% tax on all  payroll.
>
> Page 167 Lines  18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have  acceptable HC
> according to Govt will be taxed  2.5% of income.
>
> Page 170 Lines  1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is  exempt from
> individual taxes.  (Americans will pay.) (Like  always)
>
> Page  195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of  the GOVT HC Admin..  will
> have access  to ALL Americans' finances and  personal records. (I
> guess  so they can 'deduct' their  fees)
>
> Page 203  Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under  this section shall
> not be treated as tax."   (Yes, it really says  that!) ( a  'fee'
> instead)
> Page 239  Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce  physician services for
> Medicaid Seniors.   (Low-income and the poor are  affected.)
>
> Page 241  Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't  matter what specialty
> you have trained yourself  in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just
> TRY  to tell me that's not  Socialism!)
>
> Page 253 Line  10-18: The Govt sets the value of a  doctor's time,
> profession, judgment, etc.   (Literally-- the value of  humans.)
>
> Page 265 Sec 1131:  The Govt mandates and controls productivity for
> "private" HC industries.
>
> Page  268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the  rental and
> purchase of power driven  wheelchairs.
>
> Page 272 SEC.  1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS -  Cancer
> patients - welcome to  rationing!
>
> Page 280 Sec 1151:  The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever  the
> Govt deems preventable  (i.e...re-admissions).
>
> Page 298 Lines  9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during  initial
> admission that results in a re-admission  -- the Govtwill penalize
> you.
>
> Page 317 L 13-20:  PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt
> tells doctors what and how much they can  own!)
>
> Page 317-318 lines  21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion.  (The  Govt
> is mandating that hospitals cannot  expand.)
> Page 321  2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply  for exception
> BUT community input is required.   (Can you say  ACORN?)
>
> Page 335 L 16-25 Pg  336-339: The Govt mandates establishment of=2
> outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want --  rationing.)
> Page 341  Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify  Medicare
> Advance Plans, HMOs, etc.   (Forcing people into the Govt  plan)
>
> Page 354 Sec 1177: The  Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special
> needs  people!'    Unbelievable!
>
> Page  379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy  via a "Tele-
> Health Advisory Committee."   (Can you say HC by  phone?)
>
> Page 425 Lines 4-12:  The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning
> Consult."  (Think senior citizens  end-of-life patients.)
>
> Page  425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and  consult regarding
> living wills, durable powers  of attorney, etc.  (And  it's
> mandatory!)
> Page 425  Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an  "approved"
> list of end-of-life resources;  guiding you in death. (Also called
> 'assisted  suicide.')(Sounds  like Soylent Green to  me.)
>
> Page  427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for  orders on "end-
> of-life."  (The Govt has a  say in how your life  ends!)
>
> Page 429 Lines 1-9: An  "advanced-care planning consultant" will be
> used  frequently as a patient's health  deteriorates.
>
> Page 429 Lines  10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may  include an
> ORDER for end-of-life plans..   (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE
> GOVERNMENT?!?)
>
> Page 429  Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors  can write
> an end-of-life order..  (I  wouldn't want to stand before God after
> getting  paid for THAT job!)
>
> Page 430  Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of  treatment
> you will have at end-of-life!   (Again -- no  choice!)
>
> Page 469:  Community-Based Home Medical Services =  Non-Profit
> Organizations.  (Hello?   ACORN Medical Services  here!?!)
>
> Page 489 Sec 1308:  The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy.
> (Which means Govt will insert itself into  your marriage even.)
>
> Page  494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services  including
> defining, creating, and rationing  those services.
>
> Senator,  I guarantee that I personally will do everything  possible
> to inform patients and my fellow  physicians about the dangers of the
> proposed  bills you and your colleagues are  debating.
>
> Furthermore,  if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized
> medicine on the country and destroys the  doctor-patient relationship,
> I will  do everything in my power to  make sure you lose your job in
> the next  election.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Stephen  E. Fraser, MD
>
> Dear  Reader,
>
> I urge you  to use the power that you were born with (and  the power
> that may soon be taken away) and  circulate this email to as many
> people as you  can reach.  The Power of the People can  stop this from
> happening to us, our parents, our  grandparents, our children, and to
> following  generations

Thanks Sanity. Damn, this Health Care Bill is about as scary as a
Stephen King novel
I'm glad I'm in damn good health (knock, knock on wood)

namaste;
bodhi
sagetea
2010-03-17 22:21:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 5:24 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Thanks Sanity. Damn, this Health Care Bill is about as scary as a
> Stephen King novel
> I'm glad I'm in damn good health (knock, knock on wood)
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

Talk about scary. Here is todays clip of teabaggers attacking a
defenseless man with parkinsons disease.
Who's the nazis now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PX5L_v_7I
bodhi
2010-03-17 23:18:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 4:21 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Talk about scary. Here is todays clip of teabaggers attacking a
> defenseless man with parkinsons disease.
> Who's the nazis now?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PX5L_v_7I

Here's some A.C.O.R.N. workers discussing Health Care with a homeless
man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLByMshYIU&feature=related

namaste;
bodhi
bodhi
2010-03-18 04:55:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 4:21 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:24 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks Sanity. Damn, this Health Care Bill is about as scary as a
> > Stephen King novel
> > I'm glad I'm in damn good health (knock, knock on wood)
>
> > namaste;
> > bodhi
>
> Talk about scary. Here is todays clip of teabaggers attacking a
> defenseless man with parkinsons disease.
> Who's the nazis now?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PX5L_v_7I

Q:
What do Obamacare and a stool sample have in common?

A:
You have to pass them to see what's in them.

Once upon a time the Democrats were apoplectic over the Republican's
use of a self-executing rule for a $40 billion bill. Now with a
straight face the Democrats claim that using a self-executing rule for
a $1.2 trillion Health Care bill that will overtake one-fifth of
economy and possibly bankrupt this country is .... equivalent!

oh, the hypocrisy!!

Self-Executing Hypocrisy: Democratic Edition
March 17, 2010
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/17/self-executing-hypocrisy-democratic-edition/

As Michael notes, hypocrisy is a well-established parliamentary
procedure:

2010: House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer on the idea of passing health
care with a self-executing rule:

The House Democratic leader, Representative Steny H. Hoyer, also
defended the maneuver on Tuesday. “It is consistent with the rules,”
Mr. Hoyer said. “It is consistent with former practice.”

2003: House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer complaining about the
Republicans' use of self-executing rules:

"When the Republican leadership reported a self-executing rule
providing for the adoption of the $82 billion plan over 10 years and
an almost trillion-dollar plan over 20 years, accelerating the
increased child tax credit for low-income people families, we didn't
even get an opportunity to vote on the bill itself except by reference
in a self-executing rule. What kind of lack of confidence does that
display? What kind of process in pursuit of effectiveness does that
mean that we are adopting? What kind of demeaning of democracy is the
objective of efficiency resulting in?

...We should neither excuse those past practices nor count their
occurrences. No one expects every rule to be open, but we do expect
that the opportunity to debate legislation be the norm, not the
exception.

namaste;
bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-18 11:54:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 11:55 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 4:21 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:24 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks Sanity. Damn, this Health Care Bill is about as scary as a
> > > Stephen King novel
> > > I'm glad I'm in damn good health (knock, knock on wood)
>
> > > namaste;
> > > bodhi
>
> > Talk about scary. Here is todays clip of teabaggers attacking a
> > defenseless man with parkinsons disease.
> > Who's the nazis now?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PX5L_v_7I
>
> Q:
> What do Obamacare and a stool sample have in common?
>
> A:
> You have to pass them to see what's in them.
>
> Once upon a time the Democrats were apoplectic over the Republican's
> use of a self-executing rule for a $40 billion bill. Now with a
> straight face the Democrats claim that using a self-executing rule for
> a $1.2 trillion Health Care bill that will overtake one-fifth of
> economy and possibly bankrupt this country is .... equivalent!
>
> oh, the hypocrisy!!
>
> Self-Executing Hypocrisy: Democratic Edition
> March 17, 2010http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/17/self-executing-hypocrisy-d...
>
> As Michael notes, hypocrisy is a well-established parliamentary
> procedure:
>
> 2010: House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer on the idea of passing health
> care with a self-executing rule:
>
> The House Democratic leader, Representative Steny H. Hoyer, also
> defended the maneuver on Tuesday. “It is consistent with the rules,”
> Mr. Hoyer said. “It is consistent with former practice.”
>
> 2003: House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer complaining about the
> Republicans' use of self-executing rules:
>
> "When the Republican leadership reported a self-executing rule
> providing for the adoption of the $82 billion plan over 10 years and
> an almost trillion-dollar plan over 20 years, accelerating the
> increased child tax credit for low-income people families, we didn't
> even get an opportunity to vote on the bill itself except by reference
> in a self-executing rule. What kind of lack of confidence does that
> display? What kind of process in pursuit of effectiveness does that
> mean that we are adopting? What kind of demeaning of democracy is the
> objective of efficiency resulting in?
>
> ...We should neither excuse those past practices nor count their
> occurrences. No one expects every rule to be open,

I 'expect' those high in the Gummint to lie, cheat, steal, and
murder. Any rule that isn't open to the public is not meant to serve
the public. Saying: "We have to do it that way because that's the way
we have to do it." is double-talk.

> but we do expect
> that the opportunity to debate legislation be the norm, not the
> exception.

How come "we" can't DEMAND that instead of expecting it and being
disappointed again and again? [rhetoric] I have lost faith.

Peace, Sanity

>
> namaste;
> bodhi
sagetea
2010-03-18 14:42:52 UTC
Permalink
The real reason the republican are against health care is because they
are heavily invested in sarah palin's medicated goose grease . (Puts
a spring in your step and using it as a hair pomade magically makes
one look like Ronald ray-gun). So their real fear is that people will
be able to afford real doctors causing them to be stuck with cases and
cases of that worthless product. which means they wont get rich and
their kids will have to continue to work as bathroom attendants at
the Waldorf Astoria,causing uncomfortable situations when people ask
"So, hows the children?" at cocktail party's
Chuck
2010-03-18 17:36:22 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 18, 7:42 am, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:

The real reason the republican are against health care is because
they
are heavily invested in  sarah palin's medicated goose grease .

Not to be confused with Medicated Goo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo88tJuXROQ


> (Puts a spring in your step and  using it as a hair pomade magically makes
> one look like Ronald ray-gun). So their real fear is that people will
> be able to afford real doctors causing them to be stuck with cases and
> cases of that worthless product. which means they wont get rich and
> their kids will  have to continue to work as bathroom attendants at
> the Waldorf Astoria,causing uncomfortable situations when people ask
> "So, hows the children?" at cocktail party's
whistler
2010-03-18 17:45:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 18, 10:42 am, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> The real reason the republican are against health care is because they
> are heavily invested in  sarah palin's medicated goose grease . (Puts
> a spring in your step and  using it as a hair pomade magically makes
> one look like Ronald ray-gun). So their real fear is that people will
> be able to afford real doctors causing them to be stuck with cases and
> cases of that worthless product. which means they wont get rich and
> their kids will  have to continue to work as bathroom attendants at
> the Waldorf Astoria,causing uncomfortable situations when people ask
> "So, hows the children?" at cocktail party's
sagetea
2010-03-19 03:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Me thinks that dick cheney is hording all the beano.
thistle
2010-03-19 04:02:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 18, 12:55 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 4:21 pm, sagetea <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:24 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks Sanity. Damn, this Health Care Bill is about as scary as a
> > > Stephen King novel
> > > I'm glad I'm in damn good health (knock, knock on wood)
>
> > > namaste;
> > > bodhi
>
> > Talk about scary. Here is todays clip of teabaggers attacking a
> > defenseless man with parkinsons disease.
> > Who's the nazis now?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PX5L_v_7I
>
> Q:
> What do Obamacare and a stool sample have in common?
>
> A:
> You have to pass them to see what's in them.

The question again is bodhi lying are is he ignorant. HR 3200 is
posted on the web, the complete bill, and has been for months. You
don't have to pass them, but unfortunately you do have to look it up
and read it to know what's in it. But instead of actually looking at
the bill and reading it people prefer to post an e-mail from who the
fuck knows that they haven't taken even a second to check out or
verify in any way what so ever. That's the problem with this and most
other countries. Most people don't give a fuck about reading,
researching, or studying anything. The level of sheer ignorance and
stupidity displayed here is appalling.


>
> Once upon a time the Democrats were apoplectic over the Republican's
> use of a self-executing rule for a $40 billion bill. Now with a
> straight face the Democrats claim that using a self-executing rule for
> a $1.2 trillion Health Care bill that will overtake one-fifth of
> economy and possibly bankrupt this country is .... equivalent!
>
> oh, the hypocrisy!!
>
> Self-Executing Hypocrisy: Democratic Edition
> March 17, 2010http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/17/self-executing-hypocrisy-d...
>
> As Michael notes, hypocrisy is a well-established parliamentary
> procedure:
>
> 2010: House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer on the idea of passing health
> care with a self-executing rule:
>
> The House Democratic leader, Representative Steny H. Hoyer, also
> defended the maneuver on Tuesday. “It is consistent with the rules,”
> Mr. Hoyer said. “It is consistent with former practice.”
>
> 2003: House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer complaining about the
> Republicans' use of self-executing rules:
>
> "When the Republican leadership reported a self-executing rule
> providing for the adoption of the $82 billion plan over 10 years and
> an almost trillion-dollar plan over 20 years, accelerating the
> increased child tax credit for low-income people families, we didn't
> even get an opportunity to vote on the bill itself except by reference
> in a self-executing rule. What kind of lack of confidence does that
> display? What kind of process in pursuit of effectiveness does that
> mean that we are adopting? What kind of demeaning of democracy is the
> objective of efficiency resulting in?
>
> ...We should neither excuse those past practices nor count their
> occurrences. No one expects every rule to be open, but we do expect
> that the opportunity to debate legislation be the norm, not the
> exception.
>
> namaste;
> bodhi
bodhi
2010-03-19 23:57:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 18, 10:02 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> The question again is bodhi lying are is he ignorant.

I don't believe that has ever been the issue. I think the question is
will bodhi answer one of Thistle's insulting posts.

>HR 3200 is
> posted on the web, the complete bill, and has been for months.

Which bill?? HR 3200 is dead.

The proposed America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (or HR
3200) was an unsuccessful bill introduced in the U.S. House of
Representatives on July 14, 2009. The bill was introduced during the
first session of the 111th Congress as part of an effort of the
Democratic Party leadership to enact health care reform. The bill was
not approved by the House.

or do you mean HR 3962?

HR 3200 was superseded by a similar bill, the proposed Affordable
Health Care for America Act (HR 3962) This bill was introduced on
October 29, 2009 and passed on November 7 by the House but did not
pass in the Senate.

Was I suppose to read either one of these bills? No ..... because
meanwhile over at the Senate .....

The Senate utilized H.R. 3590, a bill already passed by the House, as
the vehicle for their health care reform proposal, completely revising
the content of the bill. The original bill, the Service Members Home
Ownership Tax Act of 2009, although unrelated to health care reform,
was a revenue-related modification to the Internal Revenue Code. The
bill, as amended, incorporates elements of earlier proposals that had
been reported favorably by the Health and Finance committees. This
method was chosen rather than initiating a new bill in the Senate
because the U.S. Constitution requires all revenue-related bills to
originate in the House.

This bastard bill - eventually called The Patient Protection and
Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) passed the United States Senate on
December 24, 2009, by a vote of 60-39. This was the first time the
Senate had met on Christmas Eve since 1963 (for a debate relating to
the Vietnam War), and the first roll call vote on the day since 1895.

The Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872) is a bill in the 111th
Congress to make changes and "fixes" to the Patient Protection and
Affordable Care Act (Senate health care bill).

So which bill was Sanity, Preacher Mike and everyone else on the
planet suppose to read??

The Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872) or the Patient Protection
and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590)?? Perhaps the Affordable Health
Care for America Act (H.R. 3962)??

Then there are the Superseded Proposals -
America’s Healthy Future Act (Senate Finance Cmte. / Baucus Bill - S.
1796)
America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (Tri-Comm. Bill - H.R.
3200)
Healthy Americans Act (Wyden-Bennett Bill - S. 391)
United States National Health Care Act (Single payer - H.R. 676)

But if you want to read the latest "incarnation" of H.R. 4872 here it
is:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.4872:

It still dosen't include all the backroom "additions" that will be
included in the final bill.


You
> don't have to pass them, but unfortunately you do have to look it up
> and read it to know what's in it.

Why? It's a completely waste of time. We won't know what was passed
until it's passed.

But instead of actually looking at
> the bill and reading it people prefer to post an e-mail from who the
> fuck knows that they haven't taken even a second to check out or
> verify in any way what so ever.

Have you read and researched all 18 bills?? Or just go to factchecker
and see what they have to say.

That's the problem with this and most
> other countries. Most people don't give a fuck about reading,
> researching, or studying anything. The level of sheer ignorance and
> stupidity displayed here is appalling.

I'm sorry I didn't personally read all 18 Health Care bills. But I'm
in good company - neither has Congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Affordable_Health_Choices_Act_of_2009

namaste;
bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-20 00:39:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 19, 6:57 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> -snip-
>
> I'm sorry I didn't personally read all 18 Health Care bills. But I'm
> in good company - neither has Congress.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Affordable_Health_Choices_Act_...
>
> namaste;
> bodhi

Congress is "good company"? Whoa! Back up and re-group!
thistle
2010-03-20 01:22:31 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 19, 7:57 pm, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 10:02 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The question again is bodhi lying are is he ignorant.
>
> I don't believe that has ever been the issue. I think the question is
> will bodhi answer one of Thistle's insulting posts.
>
> >HR 3200 is
> > posted on the web, the complete bill, and has been for months.
>
> Which bill?? HR 3200 is dead.
>
> The proposed America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (or HR
> 3200) was an unsuccessful bill introduced in the U.S. House of
> Representatives on July 14, 2009. The bill was introduced during the
> first session of the 111th Congress as part of an effort of the
> Democratic Party leadership to enact health care reform. The bill was
> not approved by the House.
>
> or do you mean HR 3962?
>
> HR 3200 was superseded by a similar bill, the proposed Affordable
> Health Care for America Act (HR 3962) This bill was introduced on
> October 29, 2009 and passed on November 7 by the House but did not
> pass in the Senate.
>
> Was I suppose to read either one of these bills? No ..... because
> meanwhile over at the Senate .....
>
> The Senate utilized H.R. 3590, a bill already passed by the House, as
> the vehicle for their health care reform proposal, completely revising
> the content of the bill. The original bill, the Service Members Home
> Ownership Tax Act of 2009, although unrelated to health care reform,
> was a revenue-related modification to the Internal Revenue Code. The
> bill, as amended, incorporates elements of earlier proposals that had
> been reported favorably by the Health and Finance committees.  This
> method was chosen rather than initiating a new bill in the Senate
> because the U.S. Constitution requires all revenue-related bills to
> originate in the House.
>
> This bastard bill - eventually called The Patient Protection and
> Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) passed the United States Senate on
> December 24, 2009, by a vote of 60-39. This was the first time the
> Senate had met on Christmas Eve since 1963 (for a debate relating to
> the Vietnam War), and the first roll call vote on the day since 1895.
>
> The Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872) is a bill in the 111th
> Congress to make changes and "fixes" to the Patient Protection and
> Affordable Care Act (Senate health care bill).
>
> So which bill was Sanity, Preacher Mike and everyone else on the
> planet suppose to read??
>
> The Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872) or the Patient Protection
> and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590)?? Perhaps the Affordable Health
> Care for America Act (H.R. 3962)??
>
> Then there are the Superseded Proposals -
> America’s Healthy Future Act (Senate Finance Cmte. / Baucus Bill - S.
> 1796)
> America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (Tri-Comm. Bill - H.R.
> 3200)
> Healthy Americans Act (Wyden-Bennett Bill - S. 391)
> United States National Health Care Act (Single payer - H.R. 676)
>
> But if you want to read the latest "incarnation" of H.R. 4872 here it
> is:http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.4872:
>
> It still dosen't include all the backroom "additions" that will be
> included in the final bill.
>
>  You
>
> > don't have to pass them, but unfortunately you do have to look it up
> > and read it to know what's in it.
>
> Why? It's a completely waste of time. We won't know what was passed
> until it's passed.
>
> But instead of actually looking at
>
> > the bill and reading it people prefer to post an e-mail from who the
> > fuck knows that they haven't taken even a second to check out or
> > verify in any way what so ever.
>
> Have you read and researched all 18 bills?? Or just go to factchecker
> and see what they have to say.
>
> That's the problem with this and most
>
> > other countries. Most people don't give a fuck about reading,
> > researching, or studying anything. The level of sheer ignorance and
> > stupidity displayed here is appalling.
>
> I'm sorry I didn't personally read all 18 Health Care bills. But I'm
> in good company - neither has Congress.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Affordable_Health_Choices_Act_...
>
> namaste;
> bodhi


So you did know that all the versions of health care reform were
posted on the web, including the reconciliation bill that may be voted
on this Sunday. Than you admit you were lying when you posted that we
wouldn't know what was in the bill until it passed. Its unfortunate
that you and most people have never paid the slightest bit of
attention to how congress works until now. On every complex issue
there are several groups of legislators that come forward with
different versions of legislation to deal with the issue. These
different bills are hashed over and combined in some way in the house.
The house bill when passed is looked at along with several versions of
bills produced in the senate. If some compromise between all those
bills can be worked out its sent back to the house. If the house can't
pass it its sent to a committee to produce a version that both the
house and the senate can vote for. Or in this case a reconciliation
bill that both the house and senate can vote for.

I've read the bill that was passed by the house. I've read the changes
made in the senate. And a couple of days ago I read the reconciliation
bill that will likely be voted on soon. I'm not a policy wonk so its
not necessary for me to read every bill that was introduced.

Anyone who wanted to could have know what was in the bills before they
were voted on. The reality bodhi is you will not know what is in the
bills even after they pass it. You'll never read or study any of it,
not before, not after. You'll just chose some person to be your mouth
piece and copy and paste their opinions, all the time vehemently
asserting that you believe every word that person wrote.

As for congress people not reading the bill. That's really a side
issue and a very stupid one at that. I really should ignore it but
people say it all the time and it annoys me. People say it to imply
they didn't even know what they were voting for when that is in most
cases not the truth. Good legislators with good staff know what's in
the bill even though they haven't read every word themselves. They
have staff that reads the bill, summerizes, and identifies areas that
conflict with the legislators views and then the congress person and
the staff work together to craft changes or amendments. It would be
silly to expect a legislator to waste their time reading every page of
every bill just as it would be silly to expect every executive at
microsoft to have read every line of code in a windows operating
system. Anyone who complains about legislators not reading the bill
has simply never had any experience working with people as a team to
manifest some large and complex project.
bodhi
2010-03-20 04:23:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 19, 7:22 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I've read the bill that was passed by the house.

HR 3200 is 1,017 pages long.

>I've read the changes
> made in the senate.

H.R. 3590 is 2,409 pages long.

> And a couple of days ago I read the reconciliation
> bill that will likely be voted on soon.

H.R. 4872 is 1,990 pages long.

I call bullshit.

1,990 pages at $2.2 million a word
By: Jonathan Allen
October 29, 2009
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A1F6E6D6-18FE-70B2-A85001FD75B0ABD6

It runs more pages than War and Peace, has nearly five times as many
words as the Torah, and its tables of contents alone run far longer
than this story.

The House health care bill unveiled Thursday clocks in at 1,990 pages
and about 400,000 words. With an estimated 10-year cost of $894
billion, that comes out to about $2.24 million per word. .

And for some members, that may not be enough.

A “robust” public option can’t be found in the bill. Neither can the
word “doctor” – save for a few references to degrees. No “cost curve”
is bent. No “blue pill” is dispensed.

“Death” and “taxes” are both in there, but “death panel” is not.

The text defines dozens of words and phrases, including “family” (“an
individual and . . . the individual’s dependents”), “health insurance
coverage,” “exchange-eligible individual” and “Indian.”

And for those who cry “read the bill,” beware. There are plenty of
paragraphs like this one:

“(a) Outpatient Hospitals – (1) In General – Section 1833(t)(3)(C)(iv)
of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395(t)(3)(C)(iv)) is amended –
(A) in the first sentence – (i) by inserting “(which is subject to the
productivity adjustment described in subclause (II) of such section)”
after “1886(b)(3)(B)(iii); and (ii) by inserting “(but not below 0)”
after “reduced”; and (B) in the second sentence, by inserting “and
which is subject, beginning with 2010 to the productivity adjustment
described in section 1886(b)(3)(B)(iii)(II)”.

The section deals with “incorporating productivity improvements into
market basket updates that do not already incorporate such
improvements,” if that helps.

Optimistic lawmakers say it could take a week just to get through the
bill’s text.

“I’ll have to call an emergency meeting of my staff and drop the
customary procedure of me reading and my staff not reading,” joked
House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), who
famously told filmmaker Michael Moore that lawmakers “don’t read most
of the bills.”

“It’s one thing to read it,” said Rep. Lee Terry (R-Neb.), a lawyer
who voted against the first version of the bill on its way through the
Energy and Commerce Committee. “It’s another thing to understand it
when it’s written in legalese.”

When given the bill’s dimensions, Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) noted
that some members are faster readers than others.

“That’s one afternoon for Barney Frank,” he said.

Republicans aide said a print-out of the bill weighs more than 19
pounds and stands nearly nine inches tall.

North Carolina Republican Rep. Patrick McHenry, 34 years old and a few
inches taller than 5 feet, said the bill could act as a ”booster
seat.”

Democrats say the essence of the bill isn’t much different from the
three sister bills they moved through committees this summer, which
came in around 1,000 pages.

If you read those, they say, you pretty much know what’s in this one.

“It’s almost a complete certainty that we have already discussed and
debated almost every element that’s in this bill,” said Rep. Steve
Rothman (D-N.J.)

McHenry took issue with the notion that the 2,000-page bill hasn’t
changed much from the earlier, 1,000-page versions. To prove the
point, he pulled out a Democratic-written summary of the changes.

All eight pages of them.

Asked why the House will vote on the roughly 400,000-word bill in a
week when it takes a congregation a year to read the 80,000-word Torah
at a synagogue, Rothman, who is Jewish, exhibited the wisdom of a
Talmudic scholar.

“It only takes a year because you read one section a week,” he said.

But Republican Rep. Joe Barton, who is Texan, said the bill is “about
four reams of paper” that add up to the American public “getting
reamed.”

--------------------

namaste;
bodhi
thistle
2010-03-20 06:25:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 20, 12:23 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 7:22 pm, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've read the bill that was passed by the house.
>
> HR 3200 is 1,017 pages long.
>
>  >I've read the changes
>
> > made in the senate.
>
> H.R. 3590 is 2,409 pages long.
>
> > And a couple of days ago I read the reconciliation
> > bill that will likely be voted on soon.
>
> H.R. 4872 is 1,990 pages long.
>
> I call bullshit.
>
> 1,990 pages at $2.2 million a word
> By: Jonathan Allen
> October 29, 2009http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A1F6E6D6-18FE-70B2-A85001...
>
> It runs more pages than War and Peace, has nearly five times as many
> words as the Torah, and its tables of contents alone run far longer
> than this story.

You don't realize it bodhi, but you have just confessed that you have
never looked at a legislative document, not even once in your life.
Not even a single paragraph to check the veracity of one of the
smallest pieces of information in one of the many cut and pastes you
post here. You post this article by Allen without having the slightest
bit of personal experience or knowledge to judge whether its true or
not. You claim to believe everything you post and if that's so you
have simply swallowed whole another's thoughts and opinions without
question. Its a level of faith that exceeds that of the most
fundamentalist christian.

Page length of legislation is meaningless in comparison to a novel.
There are protocols for the printing of these documents. Just as there
are different protocols for printing in a college term paper, essay,
or thesis. Nearly every sentence has a double line space between it.
The general font is larger than a novel and an even larger font is
used for each section's title. Each section has a title and often a
section is a sentence or two long. There is a triple line space after
section titles, numbered or lettered lists, subsections. At times
there are quadruple line spaces and larger. I don't know all the
reasons for the massive blank spaces since I don't care about printing
protocols, I just know they exist. The margins are larger. There are
numerous lists, each item in the list may be only a few words long,
but stands alone on a line with a triple line space between each one.

I can read a 2,000 page legislative document in about a couple of
hours at most, probably less, because there is so much white space on
a page, the fonts used are so large, and there is a lot of redundancy.
I might be a fast reader so lets say maybe 3 hours for an average
reader. I have no trouble admitting I didn't understand every
paragraph in the document. That's not unusual. I read a lot of books
outside my major fields of study and often don't fully understand
everything in them. I'm generally happy if I understand 80% of a high
level book on a complex subject.

I have long had the theory that you didn't have a clue whether the
stuff you cut and paste here is true or not. I've always had the
theory that you were just a mouth piece for the opinions and thoughts
of other people. For anyone who has ever looked at a legislative
document you have just proved that you don't have a clue and that you
never bothered to verify or consider critically the thoughts of those
you cut and paste here.

You really should check out a legislative document. You would quickly
realize what a bunch of bullshit this article you just posted is.
(laughs) not that you'd ever admit it though.

>
> The House health care bill unveiled Thursday clocks in at 1,990 pages
> and about 400,000 words. With an estimated 10-year cost of $894
> billion, that comes out to about $2.24 million per word. .
>
> And for some members, that may not be enough.
>
> A “robust” public option can’t be found in the bill. Neither can the
> word “doctor” – save for a few references to degrees. No “cost curve”
> is bent. No “blue pill” is dispensed.
>
> “Death” and “taxes” are both in there, but “death panel” is not.
>
> The text defines dozens of words and phrases, including “family” (“an
> individual and . . . the individual’s dependents”), “health insurance
> coverage,” “exchange-eligible individual” and “Indian.”
>
> And for those who cry “read the bill,” beware. There are plenty of
> paragraphs like this one:
>
> “(a) Outpatient Hospitals – (1) In General – Section 1833(t)(3)(C)(iv)
> of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395(t)(3)(C)(iv)) is amended –
> (A) in the first sentence – (i) by inserting “(which is subject to the
> productivity adjustment described in subclause (II) of such section)”
> after “1886(b)(3)(B)(iii); and (ii) by inserting “(but not below 0)”
> after “reduced”; and (B) in the second sentence, by inserting “and
> which is subject, beginning with 2010 to the productivity adjustment
> described in section 1886(b)(3)(B)(iii)(II)”.
>
> The section deals with “incorporating productivity improvements into
> market basket updates that do not already incorporate such
> improvements,” if that helps.
>
> Optimistic lawmakers say it could take a week just to get through the
> bill’s text.
>
> “I’ll have to call an emergency meeting of my staff and drop the
> customary procedure of me reading and my staff not reading,” joked
> House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), who
> famously told filmmaker Michael Moore that lawmakers “don’t read most
> of the bills.”
>
> “It’s one thing to read it,” said Rep. Lee Terry (R-Neb.), a lawyer
> who voted against the first version of the bill on its way through the
> Energy and Commerce Committee. “It’s another thing to understand it
> when it’s written in legalese.”
>
> When given the bill’s dimensions, Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) noted
> that some members are faster readers than others.
>
> “That’s one afternoon for Barney Frank,” he said.
>
> Republicans aide said a print-out of the bill weighs more than 19
> pounds and stands nearly nine inches tall.
>
> North Carolina Republican Rep. Patrick McHenry, 34 years old and a few
> inches taller than 5 feet, said the bill could act as a ”booster
> seat.”
>
> Democrats say the essence of the bill isn’t much different from the
> three sister bills they moved through committees this summer, which
> came in around 1,000 pages.
>
> If you read those, they say, you pretty much know what’s in this one.
>
> “It’s almost a complete certainty that we have already discussed and
> debated almost every element that’s in this bill,” said Rep. Steve
> Rothman (D-N.J.)
>
> McHenry took issue with the notion that the 2,000-page bill hasn’t
> changed much from the earlier, 1,000-page versions. To prove the
> point, he pulled out a Democratic-written summary of the changes.
>
> All eight pages of them.
>
> Asked why the House will vote on the roughly 400,000-word bill in a
> week when it takes a congregation a year to read the 80,000-word Torah
> at a synagogue, Rothman, who is Jewish, exhibited the wisdom of a
> Talmudic scholar.
>
> “It only takes a year because you read one section a week,” he said.
>
> But Republican Rep. Joe Barton, who is Texan, said the bill is “about
> four reams of paper” that add up to the American public “getting
> reamed.”
>
> --------------------
>
> namaste;
> bodhi
bodhi
2010-03-20 08:33:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 20, 12:25 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> You don't realize it bodhi, but you have just confessed that you have
> never looked at a legislative document, not even once in your life.
> Not even a single paragraph to check the veracity of one of the
> smallest pieces of information in one of the many cut and pastes you
> post here.

I'm not falling for your "Reductio ad absurdum" Thistle. Just because
I didn't bother to read 1,990 pages of The Reconciliation Act of 2010
(H.R. 4872) doesn't mean I haven't read any Congressional
legislation!
Back in 2008 I tried to get you to read Bush's martial law
legislation. In this post you'll see I even included government
websites where you could read the bill in it's entirety
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gathering.rainbow/browse_thread/thread/af3d6a2738fae668/5d0133368b117f09?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Evidence+That+Bush+Will+Cancel+Elections+%26+Declare+Martial+Law#5d0133368b117f09

I doubt you ever read those bills as evident to your total lack of
knowledge on the issue.

In 2004 I posted a link to the Democrat's "muscular internationalism"
policy website. Again I was ignored.

You post this article by Allen without having the slightest
> bit of personal experience or knowledge to judge whether its true or
> not. You claim to believe everything you post and if that's so you
> have simply swallowed whole another's thoughts and opinions without
> question. Its a level of faith that exceeds that of the most
> fundamentalist christian.

Bullshit. I posted one article because it condensed the information I
read in 10 other articles. The condemnation for this Health Care bill
is across the political spectrum. That should give you a clue.

Do you support this bill? Do you want it passed? Are you defending
it's content, it's process? Or are you trying again to prove to me
that you possess "the truth" and I am - again - an insane liar.

>
> Page length of legislation is meaningless in comparison to a novel.
> There are protocols for the printing of these documents. Just as there
> are different protocols for printing in a college term paper, essay,
> or thesis. Nearly every sentence has a double line space between it.
> The general font is larger than a novel and an even larger font is
> used for each section's title. Each section has a title and often a
> section is a sentence or two long. There is a triple line space after
> section titles, numbered or lettered lists, subsections. At times
> there are quadruple line spaces and larger. I don't know all the
> reasons for the massive blank spaces since I don't care about printing
> protocols, I just know they exist. The margins are larger. There are
> numerous lists, each item in the list may be only a few words long,
> but stands alone on a line with a triple line space between each one.

I once read James Joyce's Finnegans Wake - all the way through. I
ain't bragging. Just because I can read Joyce doesn't mean I would
waste my time reading him. Just because I can read government
documents doesn't mean I would waste my time reading 1,990 page of
bureaucratic bullshit.

>
> I can read a 2,000 page legislative document in about a couple of
> hours at most, probably less, because there is so much white space on
> a page, the fonts used are so large, and there is a lot of redundancy.
> I might be a fast reader so lets say maybe 3 hours for an average
> reader.

Ever read Silas Marner?

I have no trouble admitting I didn't understand every
> paragraph in the document. That's not unusual. I read a lot of books
> outside my major fields of study and often don't fully understand
> everything in them. I'm generally happy if I understand 80% of a high
> level book on a complex subject.

I only understood 20% of Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
I ain't bragging.

>
> I have long had the theory that you didn't have a clue whether the
> stuff you cut and paste here is true or not. I've always had the
> theory that you were just a mouth piece for the opinions and thoughts
> of other people.

Usually I make up my own mind about something then go out to see if
anyone else agrees with me. Seriously that's how I work.

For anyone who has ever looked at a legislative
> document you have just proved that you don't have a clue and that you
> never bothered to verify or consider critically the thoughts of those
> you cut and paste here.

I saw nothing factually incorrect about any of the articles I posted
on this thread. You're bent out of shape over an e-mail Sanity posted
- not me.

>
> You really should check out a legislative document. You would quickly
> realize what a bunch of bullshit this article you just posted is.
> (laughs) not that you'd ever admit it though.

The Jonathan Allen article??


namaste;
bodhi
thistle
2010-03-20 14:16:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 20, 4:33 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 12:25 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You don't realize it bodhi, but you have just confessed that you have
> > never looked at a legislative document, not even once in your life.
> > Not even a single paragraph to check the veracity of one of the
> > smallest pieces of information in one of the many cut and pastes you
> > post here.
>
> I'm not falling for your "Reductio ad absurdum" Thistle. Just because
> I didn't bother to read 1,990 pages of The Reconciliation Act of 2010
> (H.R. 4872)  doesn't mean I haven't read any Congressional
> legislation!

(shrug) Whatever bodhi. You really should try to tell the truth

once in your life. The article by Jonathan Allen is an

obvious lie. Anyone who has ever read a legislative

document produced by the congress would immediately

see that the whole thing is double spaced. Anyone who has

ever read a novel would see it is single spaced.

That alone would cause a novel written with government

protocols to be twice as many pages as the novel

written in normal style.

Add to that the larger font size and the larger

margins which results in less words on every

line. A novel written in government

protocols would be several times as long

as a novel written in normal style.

Since its likely that ninety percent

of the people reading here have never looked at

a government document you can cling to your

pretense and maybe get away with it.

But anyone who has ever read a government document

knows the article by Jonathon Allen knows it is

factually incorrect.

You are either knowingly spreading the lie or

you are spreading it out of ignorance. In this

case my guess is you are spreading the lie out

of ignorance.

> Back in 2008 I tried to get you to read Bush's martial law
> legislation. In this post you'll see I even included government
> websites where you could read the bill in it's entiretyhttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.gathering.rainbow/browse_thread/th...
>
> I doubt you ever read those bills as evident to your total lack of
> knowledge on the issue.

You posted a cut and paste with the link included in the

article. I doubt you ever clicked on the link to the

legislation. If you had you would have immediately known

the Jonathan Allen article was factually incorrect

and if you were honest you wouldn't have posted

such an obvious lie in this thread.


>
> In 2004 I posted a link to the Democrat's "muscular internationalism"
> policy website. Again I was ignored.
>
>  You post this article by Allen without having the slightest
>
> > bit of personal experience or knowledge to judge whether its true or
> > not. You claim to believe everything you post and if that's so you
> > have simply swallowed whole another's thoughts and opinions without
> > question. Its a level of faith that exceeds that of the most
> > fundamentalist christian.
>
> Bullshit. I posted one article because it condensed the information I
> read in 10 other articles. The condemnation for this Health Care bill
> is across the political spectrum. That should give you a clue.
>
> Do you support this bill? Do you want it passed? Are you defending
> it's content, it's process? Or are you trying again to prove to me
> that you possess "the truth" and I am - again - an insane liar.
>
>
>
> > Page length of legislation is meaningless in comparison to a novel.
> > There are protocols for the printing of these documents. Just as there
> > are different protocols for printing in a college term paper, essay,
> > or thesis. Nearly every sentence has a double line space between it.
> > The general font is larger than a novel and an even larger font is
> > used for each section's title. Each section has a title and often a
> > section is a sentence or two long. There is a triple line space after
> > section titles, numbered or lettered lists, subsections. At times
> > there are quadruple line spaces and larger. I don't know all the
> > reasons for the massive blank spaces since I don't care about printing
> > protocols, I just know they exist. The margins are larger. There are
> > numerous lists, each item in the list may be only a few words long,
> > but stands alone on a line with a triple line space between each one.
>
> I once read James Joyce's Finnegans Wake - all the way through. I
> ain't bragging. Just because I can read Joyce doesn't mean I would
> waste my time reading him. Just because I can read government
> documents doesn't mean I would waste my time reading 1,990 page of
> bureaucratic bullshit.
>
>
>
> > I can read a 2,000 page legislative document in about a couple of
> > hours at most, probably less, because there is so much white space on
> > a page, the fonts used are so large, and there is a lot of redundancy.
> > I might be a fast reader so lets say maybe 3 hours for an average
> > reader.
>
> Ever read Silas Marner?
>
>  I have no trouble admitting I didn't understand every
>
> > paragraph in the document. That's not unusual. I read a lot of books
> > outside my major fields of study and often don't fully understand
> > everything in them. I'm generally happy if I understand 80% of a high
> > level book on a complex subject.
>
> I only understood 20% of Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
> I ain't bragging.
>
>
>
> > I have long had the theory that you didn't have a clue whether the
> > stuff you cut and paste here is true or not. I've always had the
> > theory that you were just a mouth piece for the opinions and thoughts
> > of other people.
>
> Usually I make up my own mind about something then go out to see if
> anyone else agrees with me. Seriously that's how I work.
>
> For anyone who has ever looked at a legislative
>
> > document you have just proved that you don't have a clue and that you
> > never bothered to verify or consider critically the thoughts of those
> > you cut and paste here.
>
> I saw nothing factually incorrect about any of the articles I posted
> on this thread. You're bent out of shape over an e-mail Sanity posted
> - not me.
>
>
>
> > You really should check out a legislative document. You would quickly
> > realize what a bunch of bullshit this article you just posted is.
> > (laughs) not that you'd ever admit it though.
>
> The Jonathan Allen article??
>
> namaste;
> bodhi
Sanity
2010-03-20 16:14:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 20, 9:16 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> -snip-
>
> Anyone who has ever read a legislative
>
> document produced by the congress would immediately
>
> see that the whole thing is double spaced.-snip-

It's double spaced for ease in editing... All congress has to do
tomorrow before their vote is change a couple of words to change the
context and meaning of the whole thing. Backroom deals and last
minute alterations eschew transparency and keep the public from
knowing exactly what's going on. "But it's an EMERGENCY! That's the
way it's done and we have to do it that way because that's the way we
have to do it!" Lies are boring and outrage is too much effort. I
wonder what's going on at the drum circle.
thistle
2010-03-17 19:23:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 17, 11:51 am, bodhi <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:52 am, thistle <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > OK bodhi, You say you truly believe this nonsense you post and I'll
> > accept that. You're not just posting this right wing nonsense to
> > create drama and draw attention to yourself. You really do believe it.
> > You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
> > cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
> > camps. Its not some pose or prank. You have some mental issues. You've
> > told us you used to get a psych check. What was the diagnosis,
> > paranoid schizophrenic?
>
> > While it is possible that the economic crisis could cause a world wide
> > collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near future. Even if that
> > happened there is nothing in the health care bill that would help the
> > president or the congress to declare martial law or to diminish
> > freedoms or to control the people. It gives no additional powers to
> > the president or the congress.
>
> > Calm down, try to realize you're having an episode and see if you can
> > get back on your meds. This too will pass, just like your delusion
> > that bush was going to take control and send us to concentration camps.
>
> oooooo am I being dismissed here?


No, I'm expressing my sympathy. Either you are lying or you're
delusional. If you're lying I can't relate to you at all. But if you
truly believe the apocalyptic scenarios you post one after the other
you're delusional. About 35 years ago I had a psychological break and
was delusional. I understand you more than you think.

>
> Not so fast.
>
> First, you say "While it is possible that the economic crisis could
> cause a world wide collapse it doesn't seem likely in the near
> future."
>
> I only have two words to say to that
>
> "Commercial Real Estate"
>
> O.K. THREE words.
>
> Commercial Real Estate Could Be Next Economic Threathttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBmvVxmivLM
> (spoken slooooowly so that you can understand - or try reading her
> lips!)

I know all about it. There's been dozens of articles written about it.
It could knock the world out of this recession into a full blown
depression. That would make life much more difficult for people than
it is now, but Obama would not declare martial law.

>
> Economic Recession, Depression, or Systematic Breakdown
>
> "As crooked politicians, Federal Reserve hacks, and cheerleading media
> pundits inform you the recession is over, you probably have a sneaking
> suspicion they are lying."http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17665.html
>
> Your second stupid statement was:
>
> "You also really believed that bush was going to declare martial law,
> cancel the 2008 election and start shipping people to concentration
> camps."

Didn't happen did it? Here is another reason I think you're just
trying to provoke people here. While you're ranting about this rather
meaningless health care reform bill and comparing it to Hitler's
enabling act, the Patriot Act was reauthorized without a blip from
you.

>
> Go back to burying your head in the sand, Thistle

I'm clear eyed enough to have been right every time you saw apocalypse
and I didn't. At least as far back as Y2K. And you've been delusional
enough to have been wrong every time. So who exactly has their head
in the sand?

The sad reality is not that Obama is Hitler and health care reform the
Hitler enabling act. Its that Obama is a standard center right
politician and HCR will do very little to fix the broken system we
have now. People voted for change and got the same old same old
demopublican.
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